Hey all,

I was wondering if they still make games nowadays where you are on your own, literally. Where you must think to advance, you must be patient and dedicated to find the objects you need (puzzle box, love of me life, I salute you!) you must solve the quests yourself, without magic arrows pointing at the exact location or quest journal that updates even before you can read the book you just found.

I'm not going to hide the obvious, it's modern TES that i take for reference. There is so much hand holding in these games (at least in Oblivion and Skyrim) that sometimes I feel like the game is playing itself in front of my eyes and I'm just watching. We have letters and books. Great! We can find quest clues in them. Even better. But we don't have to actually read the books, search for useful information, anolyze, use trial and error because the built in journal system extracts the essentials from the given book, draws the conclusions, updates the journal and then tells me what to do next.

'You found a key'
ok
'it probably opens something'
no kidding
'You should find a door nearby, probably 15 feet from where you found it'
duh

I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes to read, gather clues, note them down on a paper, keep track of npcs and locations without all these lazyproof electronic aids.
Then there's the puzzle thing. I'm glad they added puzzles in the dungeons with Skyrim, but they are too damn easy to solve, the clues are too simple and obvious and the patterns get old too fast. I'm looking for an RPG that features puzzles comparable in variety and difficulty to those found in classic point and click adventure games. Where you are considered one of those intelligent human beings with enough time on their hands, curious enough and willing to struggle and put the clues together and try the possible combinations until they succeed.

So, do you happen to know any modern RPG that offers the player a good story with little to no handholding? I need to feel challenged hard and rewarded accordingly. I'm sick of "modern" electronic devices that play the game and sort the information for me. Thank you for the suggestions.

P.S. I'm saying "modern RPGs" because I can't play old games any more, they look too ugly for my (now and forever) spoiled graphics standards. I'm considering games as old as Morrowind or newer.

Dark Souls and Demon's Souls?

minus puzzles and a good story, but full of challenge and minimal hand-holding

You should... get off your graphics high horse and play heretic/hexen/hexen 2. Real gamer's games.

If you like playing with keys, you should try the Ultima 7 games. I swear I found in Serpent Isle a key near the start of the game that was used at the end of the game XD And that was just one key among 50 or more you can find the the game


It's kinda old though but the 2D graphics age well I'd say. IF you can stand the weird perspective.

May not meet all of your criteria, but try:
Arx Fatalis
The Witcher 1 & 2
Gothic 1 & 2
Risen
System Shock 2
Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
Deus Ex

Dwarf Fortress.

Try Nehrim (total conversion). It's Oblivion+ and it's more challenging.

Another vote for dark souls.

"Ring the bells of awakening" is all you hear after the start. And the game punishes you. Like when you enter a certain world, and the only way out is to fight enemies who's blood is toxic. Fun times.

I remember my first curse...

Dark Souls looks like a good RPG. I've heard of it but never bothered to read the review. It looks awesome!

My next game for sure.

"The depths arent so bad, why did people complain so much."
*falls down hole, surrounded by frogs*

Then I had to make a trip into new londo, at half my health. [censored] I hated those things.

I hated new londo too, even on later playthroughs, the transient curse wears off at the most inconvenient times.

Still my worst memory was the 4 kings on NG+. Never again.

Or Kings of Amalur is coming out tomorrow. I heard it's pretty good too.

And you should not be so rude and tell others what to like or act as if you clearly define what real gamers are or what games they might play. Your post seems to indicate you're on a pretty high horse yourself. Please don't flame others in this way. Most of us here consider ourselves "real gamers".

Prepare to die. You have been warned.

A list I can support.

Too bad I can't know whether Dark Souls or Demon's Souls is worth it, being a PC gamer.

Keep an eye on upcoming quest mods for Skyrim, if you're a PC gamer. Mods tend to do less hand-holding.

I'm working on a TC myself which is exactly the kind of thing you're talking about. CK permitting, there will be no hand-holding at all. You will have to talk to people, look for clues, and figure things out on your own. Of course, there will be plenty of action, too.

Demon's Souls is great (haven't played Dark Souls, yet) but it's very much about the tactical combat in that game. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines is also an excellent game with more of the stuff you're looking for.

Hmm... sorry. I should have included a smiley emoticon to indicate the light-heartedness of my post.

Edit:

Seems I'm the only one to have not misinterpreted something you've posted tonight.

modern

dark souls & demons souls (hand holding in the form of multiplayer messages, able to turn off in menu but you will need them!)
fallout: NV* (some hand holding, but still a great game)
deus ex human revolution (offensive hand holding, but able to turn off in menu)
i have not played it but the stalker series is meant to be good modern rpg but not sure about hand holding, probably minor.

morrowind era (the best)

deus ex*
deus ex invisible war
onimusha dawn of dreams (more action rpg, but has quite a lot of varied puzzles too)
baldurs gate 1 & 2....average games in my opinion but definately worth a co-op playthrough
arx fatalis*
vampire the masquerade bloodlines*
system shock 2*

games with an asterisk are must plays

special mentions- call of cthulhu dark corners of the earth. absolutely no hand holding, extremely immersive and some challenging puzzles. no rpg elements though.

castlevania: symphony of the night. get it on psn or xbla. absolutely no hand holding(actually needs some hholding), great music and tons of rpg gameplay elements. minimal story though.

koudelka- resident evil rpg. good graphics for its time and no hand holding.

you shouldnt refuse old games for their graphics though. graphics should be your last concern.
there are others id reccommend but im straying too far from what you requested.

I'm playing King's Quest. Not only there's abosulotely no handholding, you also have to read through the cryptic manual to understand how to save a game. I'm loving this old schoolness but are you really sure you want to go back that way?

I can think of a few more than that.

I never can get into that game, its the ASCII that bothers me so much.

Anyway op.
eschalon book 1 and 2 might be something you like.
http://basiliskgames.com/eschalon-book-i

Mount and Blade while not a "RPG" per say is pretty good.
http://www.taleworlds.com/

The witcher 1 and 2 along with the Deus ex games.
I am not sure linking to the witcher site would be safe here, sorry.

Morrwoind is a good classic rpg with Fallout 1 and 2, along with planescape torment.
I also found Never winter nights 1 and 2, along wtih Icewind dale to be good.

The temple of element eval is good IMO with the patches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_%28video_game%29

Stalker SOC is RPG-ish and with complete 2009 its been a good game.

First person? In the Hexen universe? Like what?

Well, what about Heretic 2?

Barbie Horse Adventures: Wild Horse Rescue. The amount of character customisation, right down to the colour of your riding boots (Hot pink, Pale pink or Purple-y pink), is incredible!