WARNING! LONG POST IS LONG

So, I've been playing the Elder Scrolls series since Morrowind (I know. I know. Young Blood.), and in all three games my first and primary character has always been a Nord Crusader/Paladin. Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapon, and Restoration Magic. I always chose the Atronoch Birthsign and have picked up its Stone in Skyrim. I basically enjoy being a Sword and Board/Mage's worst Nightmare kind of character.

I give this insight into my play style mainly to serve as the focus. I get up close and personal with foes. Dragon Battles in Skyrim basically involve me shouting at them (And it never gets old to describe it like that) until they land. I tried to pick up Archery for a bit, dropped it rather quickly. Just not my style. But I digress - I get up close and personal with my foes, and I play a Native Son. But a Native Son who in the previous two games of the series I've played, has always worked for the benefit of the Empire.

I went into Skyrim with the full intention of giving both sides of the Civil War a equal hearing. The Imperials trying to behead me at the beginning of the game never even phased me - being a prisoner is part of the Elder Scrolls and it never occurred to me to really take offense to it. As I began my journey, I devoured any book detailing the events between Oblivion and Skyrim I could find, heard out the various Jarls, and even read many verbose postings on this very forum. I came to the conclusion that the Empire must stand.

But once I reached Solitude, that view began to shift. The needless execution of a City Guard was bad enough, but seeing how out of her element the widow of the High King was, and then speaking with General Tullius and his dismissal of the Nords and their culture...it put me off. So I decided to venture into WIndhelm and hear out the Stormcloak side, as well as investigate all these charges of Racism and Power Mongering.

Now keep in mind something here. When you first walk in on General Tullius, he is scheming with his Legate to undermine the legitimate authority of the Jarl of Whiterun and manipulate him into accepting Imperial Protection. He does this in a dismissive, arrogant manner to the native people and their traditions. When you first walk in on Ulfric Stormcloak, he and his chief adviser are contemplating conquering Whiterun in a military action. That in and of itself is a horrible thing to contemplate, but it's the manner in which it is being contemplated that is important. And then you get the glorious, mind blowing "Why I Fight" speech, which personally ranks among the greatest speeches in a video game ever.

But it's more then that. Look at who is in the room when Ulfric gets on that particular soap box. Two of his closest advisers and two guards. There are no supplicants, no one to impress...the man is speaking his heart. Even throughout his plan to attack Whiterun, Ulfric comes off as a man who comes to his decision to shed blood in sorrow, not in power.

But I get ahead of myself. What about all the "evidence" against him?

ULFRIC IS RACIST - I've seen absolutely no indication of it, from Ulfric or in Windhelm. General Tullius, on the other hand, is quite open with his remarks on Nord culture. The Gray Quarter of Windhelm is not a browbeaten slum like the Dark Elves like to make it out to be. It is cramped, to be certain, but then again...look at Windhelm. It's a Old City built in the mountains. There's not a lot of places a city like that can expand into when it suddenly finds itself playing home to hundreds of Refugees fleeing Morrowind. Refugees - I hasten to add - who admit they settled in Windhelm because it was the first city on their stop out of Morrowind. And the edict to "welcome" the Dark Elves into Skyrim came from the High King, and not the Jarl of Windhelm. It's easy to gain some PR about accepting refugees when you don't personally have to figure out where to put them.

I don't blame the Dark Elves for being resentful of their treatment in Windhelm, but ultimately they were the ones who chose to settle there, and despite their complaints about unfair treatment, they all seem to have an excuse for staying. As for Racism...there are certainly racist Nords in Windhelm and Skyrim in general. At the same time, if a High Elf almost fresh off the boat from the Summerset Isles can make it in Windhelm, then the Dark Elves need to swallow their pride at expecting better treatment and make themselves worthy of that treatment.

The Dark Elves claim racism and poor treatment. Yet they insist the Civil War of Skyrim "is not their affair" and when asked about the murders in Windhelm, you get the response "I don't care about that - no Dunmer women have been killed so why should I?"

Maybe if they took their heads out their hindquarters and took a little pride in their adopted (and make no mistake, the Nords of Windhelm certainly aren't forcing any of them to stay) home they might find the locals a little more friendly to them.

ULFRIC IS A THALMOR AGENT. Was is the correct verbage. It's clear from the Dominion Dossier on Ulfric that the High Elves managed to break him and then guilt him into being a agent for them (By convincing him that he was responsible for the fall of the Imperial City despite the fact the city fell before he succumbed to torture). After the incident in Reach, he became "deactive" - meaning the Thalmor were smart enough to realize anyone they sent to "direct" him would end up with their head at the end of a pike. But there is no denying Ulfric at one time collaborated with the Thalmor.

ULFRIC SLAUGHTERED INNOCENTS IN REACH[/IS A POWER MONGER HIMSELF. Pure, Imperialist Thalmor-apologist Propaganda as anyone who has actually been to Reach will tell you. The Forsworn are not a peaceful collective. They practice ritual sacrifice and give homage to Hagravens. Given the presence of a cabal of Cannibals also within the city, I think we can easily dismiss these claims as false.


Ultimately, I came to realize everything I'd read and heard about Ulfric Stormcloak was rubbish. Seeing this man, standing in his court and listening to the random dialogue he has...this isn't the power mad racist I'd been lead to believe. Heck, even the argument that his rebellion is a testament to his vanity by being named after him is false, since you can talk to a guy in the Map Room who admits that the name "Stormcloaks" was given by the Imperials first as a derogatory comment that supporters embraced.


Now what is Ulfric and his men fighting for?

SOVEREIGNTY FOR SKYRIM - They want to rule themselves, not have a High King picked out by a Emperor who uses Nords as meat to feed the grinder in pointless wars. Ulfric isn't just going to topple the Empire and seize power for himself - he's going to call a moot and let the Jarls pick the next High King. While with him in control of the only standing army that makes him the logical choice, it also is putting the power back in the hands of the people of Skyrim. And there's a chance he won't be named High King at all. Indeed, he's never stated he wants to be High King.

WORSHIP OF TALOS - As a Believer myself, this one is big to me. It would be akin to telling sects of Buddhists that they can no longer worship Buddha as a Godhead. Or telling Christians to stop accepting Jesus Christ as the Savior. Where does anyone get the right to impose their own brand of worship on another? And yes, I include the Daedra in that as well. What the Tribunal was doing to Daedric Cults in Vvardenfell was wrong. What the Empire is doing to Talos in Skyrim is also wrong.

Not exactly the goals of a power mad racist, is it? Let's not forget it's not Ulfric or the Stormcloaks that won't allow Khaijit or Redguards into Whiterun.


Now I will admit this: The Jarls that have rallied behind Ulfric aren't exactly the best Jarls out there. The Jarl of Dawnstar is out for glory and the Jarl of Winterhold is looking to expand his influence rather then fade away quietly like the city he is based in. I haven't met the Jarl of Riften yet. Still, the Jarls that support the Imperial Order seem a bit less...selfish...in their motivations. At the same time, the Jarls have for centuries been picked by the High King, who is himself chosen by the Emperor. So it's hardly surprising that most of the Jarls would side with their traditional masters.

So yeah. TL;DR version? This old Nord Warrior who has served the Empire faithfully for many a year, is going to gleefully see Titus Mede's weak shadow of a organization pushed out of Skyrim.

Sorry, but IMO this is a large?y biased post, and there are several facts you are trying to deny.

By all means, enlighten me. "The Bear" is a work of propagandist fiction, and Windhelm is not the hotbed of racism I was lead to believe. Ulfric doesn't deny he killed the High King, but he does deny that he killed him with a Shout. He used a Shout, yes, but it was the blade of a sword that pierced his heart that killed him. Given the attitudes in Solitude executing a Guard for following Nord Tradition, I'm more inclined to believe Ulfric's version of events then the Imperials.

What makes you think Ulfric is being honest about it? You say the stuff Imperials wrote is all shortsighted propaganda, yet Ulfric cannot be tailoring the situation to his own needs?

EDIT: Rephrased a little.

I never said it was shortsighted propaganda - I just called it propaganda. Anyone who has actually met the Forsworn know "The Bear" is a lie.

Can Ulfric be wrong? Of course he can. But in this instance - why lie about it? He killed the High King in a Trial by Combat - both sides agree with that. It's just where the Imperials claim the Shout killed the High King, Ulfric remarks that he killed him with steel.

Factor in the High King's widow refuses to give details of the duel, and the Court Wizard of Solitude remarked that the High King at martial training but wasn't expecting a Shout...what they aren't saying seems to fit in with what Ulfric is.

I'm basically in 100% agreement with the OP. Nothing I've seen from Ulfric has led me to believe anything said about him by his enemies. I can't say the same of the Empire and its representatives in Skyrim.

It seems you left out some points regrading in Ulfric is a racist part. The Grey Quarter is a slum we may not see it, but from the description given by the the Dumner that lives there is place of pure crap. The waste flows down into their streets and there are few guards that patrol the Grey Quarter.Which allows drunken idiots to come into Grey Quarter and harass/threaten the elves that live there. Argonian's get paid 1/10 tenth of what Nord workers would get and they also not allowed to come inside of the city. Also Ulfric won't help if Dunmer, Argonians, or Khajiit caravans get attacked by bandits, but you better believe if a Nord gets attacked you know Ulfric well ride out kill those bandits himself(an exaggeration yes, but that is his policy).

Also regrading about Whiterun, it would make sense that Tullius would result in the under-handed means to get the city since Imperials are noted as diplomats/traders. Also Tullius means to get is the much smarter approach to Whiterun to come over to Empire side. Why waste legionnaires to take a neutral city when you get it by convince the Jarl to come over to their side without a drop of blood. Tullius yes is a bit ignorant on Nord culture, but by the end he comes to accept the Nords as they are and even begins to respect them.

The Empire weak? You do know the Empire fought the Dominion to a standstill and the worship of Talos was ignored in Skyrim until Ulfric's Maraketh incident. That got the Thalmor's attention that the Empire weren't honoring the treaty they made with them. Of course I admit the Empire isn't blameless itself in this.

I would address more, but my PC keeps shutting down on me if I do the quote option especially on a long post like yours.

I hear that and I've seen said Drunken Idiot harass the Elves in the wee hours of the morning. That being said, they still opt to remain and have even published a book detailing how they plan on rising up, conquer Windhelm, and then the rest of Skyrim.

I'm not excusing the conditions the Elves live in. I'm simply stating that Windhelm being the age it is, coupled with the terrain...the Dark Elves would have been better off heading farther south if they wanted to set up residence rather then just dropping their things at the first town they came across.


The Dunmer fought the Empire for centuries over their right to keep Argonian and Khaijit slaves. The Beast Races have always been the downtrodden of the Elder Scrolls universe. I don't personally agree with it, but what's shown is consistent with the universe and not the machinations of a sole individual or group.


Where do you find evidence of this? I'm honestly curious at this statement. I've heard it before, but not found any solid material about it.



By the End, perhaps, but I'm more concerned about his feelings at the beginning. And Ulfric also would love to take Whiterun without bloodshed. Honestly? If I had the option, the Jarl of Whiterun seems to be the best choice for next High King. The man's undecided because he's giving this decision the weight it deserves. I respect the guy immensely for that.


The Empire is weak. Titus Mede fought a bloody five year war only to accept the same terms that sparked the war in the first place. He threw away countless lives of his subjects in what amounted to a temper tantrum. And then, he forces those Providences that are still under his jurisdiction to pay higher taxes to rebuild and rearm when he could have driven the blade into the throat of the Dominion after the battle of the Imperial City.

Yes, I know his legions were decimated, but we're talking about a fantasy world where Necromancers exist and Daedric Princes are always out for a deal. There were options beyond surrendering if the Emperor had chosen to take them.

This.

Tullius doesn't care about Nord culture because really, it doesn't matter to his job, also, it hasn't been in Skyrim for all that long. Ulfric is the massive rascist, and would kick all the non-Nord races out of Skyrim if he had the chance. If you talk to Elisif,you learn that her husband would have supported Ulfric and his dream of independence, but Ulfric had to make a boint by killing her husband in an unfair duel. The high king didn't even have a chance to take a swing, Ulfric Fus'ed him and stabbed him before he could get up. That is not honorable combat. Also, instead of choosing to negociate with Balgruuf, Ulfric essentially sent him an Ultimatum saying "If you don't back down, I'll take your city and everything that matters to you." Ulfric lacks the ability to recognize potential allies and instead only sees the people who are with him, and those who are in his path to power.

Also, do the quest "The Forsworn Conspiracy" and the following "No one escapes from Cidnha Mine"
You'll learn how "evil" the forsworn that Ulfric and his men slaughtered were. The Forsworn merely want to live their lives the way they want. Isn't that what you rebels want for the Nords? The reason why the Forsworn are so agressive is that they want to defend what little land they still control.

EDIT:
"The Empire is weak. Titus Mede fought a bloody five year war only to accept the same terms that sparked the war in the first place. He threw away countless lives of his subjects in what amounted to a temper tantrum. And then, he forces those Providences that are still under his jurisdiction to pay higher taxes to rebuild and rearm when he could have driven the blade into the throat of the Dominion after the battle of the Imperial City.

Yes, I know his legions were decimated, but we're talking about a fantasy world where Necromancers exist and Daedric Princes are always out for a deal. There were options beyond surrendering if the Emperor had chosen to take them. "

Did you just call the great war a temper tantrum? The emperor knew that the terms were a precursor to a war anyway, so he instead decided to have the war first. The war was inevitable, but had he accepted the terms, the Thalmor would've been able to sow discord and ruin the empire from within before declaring war and stomping them. But by having the war first, the Thalmor only have the funds to hunt Talos worshippers, and both sides are rebuilding for round two, in which the Empire will win, otherwise TES will drop from 9 races to 5, and the Thalmor will run everything. If Skyrim goes independant, then the Empire will fall, and Skyrim soon after.

Citation Needed. Everyone keeps saying this but it's not present from what I can see. Maybe it's because I am playing a Nord?


I've never supported Ulfric using Thu'um as the opener for combat, at the same time his point was a valid one. A true *king* of Skyrim would have been able to endure a single Shout. Much in the same way the Graybeards Shouted at you when you reach High Hrothgar. If you had not been true Dragonborn, their speech would have killed you.


Or it could be wanting to end the war as quickly as possible to prevent the same kind of bloodshed Titus Mede allowed. I can't speak to his correspondence with Balgruuf since I haven't officially joined the Stormcloaks yet (I'm going to deal with the Dragons first). But that is in keeping with how he worded it when you first meet him. Really, he's not doing it to spite Balgruuf - he's doing it to show the other Jarls he's serious and will come and take their holds away if they stand against his ideals. It all comes back to ending the war as fast and with as minimal amount of bloodshed as possible.


Plan to.

They also practice ritual Human sacrifice and venerate Hagravens. We've been over this before. The Forsworn are not good people.


He still accepted the terms right after he'd achieved a crushing military victory. He could have dictated surrender terms rather then roll over like a disciplined dog.

As for the Thalmor, people are greatly overestimating their military might. Hammerfell kicked them out after only five years, without any kind of Imperial support. If the Thalmor tried to strike at Skyrim militarily, they'd have an even bigger fight on their hands. Even disregarding the Graybeards and the Thu'um, the Nords version of the Fighters Guild is filled with Werewolves. Also, Skyrim's local fauna (and flora come to think of it) aren't exactly friendly. The Milk Drinking Elves wouldn't last long once they got into the more mountainous regions.

Im not sure whats been added since the last time I read this like 20 minutes ago, but Tullius isn't a complete ass hole like you said he was. If you actually see the Empire side of the civil war all the way through, Tullius says he respects the nords.

IMO, there should be an option to where I kill both leaders and claim myself as High King. After all I am, Dovhakiin, Arch-Mage, a Nightongale, Dark Brotherhood Listener, and the King of Thieves (not sure of real title). And I saved everyones ass by killing Alduin. I should be High King of Skyrim. Not a bard though...

Also, my personal opinion about Tullius is he is just a puppet of the Thalmor, and i think Ulfric is a d!ck head.

Actually, Tullius hates Thalmor guts, and wants to get rid of them, but he can't without sparking another war. Ulfric is in fact the Thalmor puppet if you read the dossier.

One side note about Tullius I found interesting. Remember the Grey-Mane that was captured by the Thalmor for Talos worship? Tullius sent a letter to the Battle-Borns about it. Why would someone who wanted to defend the Thalmor send a letter like that, detailing not only exactly what happened but also exactly where he was taken, if he didn't want to imply that they should do something to help?

As for why it was sent to the Battle-Borns and not the Grey-Manes, I think it's because they have Imperial connections. It seems natural to send a letter from an Imperial General to a family with Imperial connections. Tullius likely didn't even know about the feud between the two clans, and could have expected the Battle-Borns to be the ones to help the Grey-Mane.

Was a Thalmor puppet. Not any longer. The worst the Thalmor could do to him would be blackmail him about his past dealings with them. And even then, it's shaky since his own pretenses for becoming a puppet of the Thalmor were false (They made him think he was responsible for the sacking of the Imperial City when it had fallen prior to him succumbing to torture).

Ive only played the Empire side once, and blasted through it. But what I got from the Main Quest is that the Thalmor are essentially going to be the next big thing in all of Tamriel and are always around where the Empire is. I thought they basically were trying to have the two sides weaken each other so they could sweep in and conquer all.

I'll admit I didnt read the Dossier of Ulfric. Or anyone. My first build was the only one that i did the MQ all the way through with (as i see Dragon encounters become tedious and occur to much, so by not doing MQ they dont appear) but my latest playthrough i'll be sure to take a peak at the dossiers.

Still wish I could be High King though...

That could never happen in an Elder Scrolls game though.

"The High King of Skyrim and Emperor of the Empire, Emperor Dragonborn, whose real name, race, age, and gender currently escape us, did some things in the year so and so et cetera et cetera..."

Also, please remember that bandying out the 'Racist' argument is not a good argument in the Elder Scrolls universe. Every race in Tamriel has a dim view of outsiders in their homeland, and often a dim view of outsiders in general. Why should the Nords be different? Intolerant attitudes to outsiders are the norm in a gritty fantasy universe.

The important issues to the legitimacy of the Stormcloak rebellion are these:

1) Are the Emperor and his appointees strong enough to defend Skyrim?

This is definitely an emphatic no. The Empire won the Battle of the Red Ring, but lost the war at the bargaining table. They're cooperating with the Thalmor in hunting down Nords who defy the ban of Talos worship. To a true Nord, the reasons behind the ban are irrelevant. Claiming that you need to uphold the ban to keep the peace with the Thalmor is an implicit admission that you're too weak to defend your people, and a King who doesn't defend his people is no King at all.

2) Was Ulfric's challenge for the High Kingship legitimate?

I don't see any reason why it wasn't. High King Torygg accepted the duel and lost. Complaining that he used the Thu'un to win as 'unfair' is, once again, an implict admission that Ulfric was stronger, which was the whole point of the challenge to begin with.

Hey, the Champion of Cyrodill became Sheogorath. Anything's possible.

But that's easy. Sheogorath just conveniently replaced the Champion. Overwrote anything the Champion used to be with a magic *poof* of Daedra dust.

How could the history books rectify a High King of Skyrim when said High King could be anything from a sixy evil thief elf to a noble beefy warrior nord?

Edit: I know. By sending Dragonborn to Akavir, never to be seen or heard from again.

Edit2: Somewhere in Akavir, in a palace built by the monkey people, sits Nerevar and Dragonborn, who are occasionally visited by Sheogorath for tea.

I would have to visit Solitude again to be certain, but as far as I can recall Tullius dialogue with Rikke involved more grumbling about stubborn nords than any outright dismissal of their culture. I remember him saying "Damn you nords and your honour". But that's as much an acknowledgement of said honour as a bit of venting over how it's an obstacle in his mission to root out the stormcloaks.

just a note on the gray quarter before that issue gets mentioned and out of hand...

talk to the people in town a bit. you'll quickly see why they're treated the way they are. look at niranye. she faced typical racism and hardships, as any elf would when living in the heart of nord country. what did she do? she worked hard and made people respect her. now? no racism. no issues. she sells her merchandise in the heart of windhelm with ZERO issues at all.

what did the dark elves do when they got here? they IMMEDIATELY started complaining and gave up. there is no real evidence that they worked hard to gain respect. they went to their gray quarter and stayed there. if ur not willing to work hard for respect, u deserve none.

as an altmer, skyrim will always be my least-favorite game. its simply too nord-heavy. theres nothing that bethesda can do to make me REALLY like this game. will i still play it? of course. but i will say this... i do respect the nords for how they demand hard work. if ur not willing to put in the work, ur not going to get ahead.

so is ulfric perfect? not really. but he is a good leader and earned his title fair and square. he challenged him and won. its that simply. even if he DID shout him to death... is that so wrong? the nords accept the challenge system. why is it so terrible for ulfric to use a shout and kill the king but the dragonborn can do it whenever he wants? why is ulfric hated by everyone for it? i simply dont get it. the guards and every1 else keep saying how bad this is but offer no reasoning at all.

also remember that the elves are just as much to blame for their place in skyrim as anyone else is. if they showed some respect and worked hard like niranye did, they'd be doing just fine.

Just food for thought...

How can ANYONE condemn Ulfric for using the Thu'um against the High King when 98% of us use it every five minutes to slaughter whatever we want?

Especially if you've done the Civil War quests, you've likely used it on footmen even weaker than the High King was.

Whether or not the Forsworn are or were 'good' people (and you know, their current pissiness is due to whatever DID happen in Markarth. Which, well, at least one person in Cidna mine has a rather horrifying tale of it), doesn't automatically rule out whether other people can do terrible things to them. Saying The Bear of Markarth is clearly all false because the Forsworn are dikes is uh...well no. It's amazingly biased, is clearly trying to smear Ulfric, and is no doubt exaggerating events...but that doesn't automatically mean that everything in it is a complete fabrication. There's a book that's clearly slanted massively in favor of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks too, and as I recall, while it's again clearly biased and exaggerating, it's not purely making stuff up.

Almost certainly, Ulfric did some pretty questionable stuff when he stormed Markarth. You get quite a lot of horror stories from doing the Forsworn Conspiracy quest. You hear about how the Reachmen have, since, become massively violent. You walk into Markarth and one is stabbing some woman right in front of you. Their 'king in rags' makes a lot of good points and then goes on to rant about how he's going to kill every Nord in the Reach and make rivers run red and so on. Call me crazy, but I don't think that kind of anger comes from people that are just, you know, bad people without any reason. Are the Forsworn bad people? Definitely the vast majority of the ones you run into. Do they not still have some pretty legitimate grievances? Hell yes. This game is full of shades of grey. (I'd love to know if their alliance with the hagravens is a recent thing, or just part of their culture. I mean, have they always had 'briarhearts' among their ranks? Spooky stuff).

Same goes for the Dunmer and the Argonians. You can't really say 'Windhelm is totally not racist because the Dunmer aren't jumping on the Stormcloak train' (seriously, we're talking about a group of refugees only grudgingly allowed to exist within the city, in a province and culture they've warred with on and off constantly for centuries. Can you imagine what they'd be risking by taking sides? And that's assuming they're combat fit anyway), so therefore treating them as lessers is okay. Are the Dunmer not being particularly helpful toward their own situation? Yes. Are the Nords in Windhelm still quite often racist douchebags? YES. As for the Argonians, you acknowledge that racism against the 'beast' races is very common so...it's not unique to Windhelm. While true, that still means that Windhelm is racist. It also means that other cities are racist (though Windhelm's the only one that seems to make their Argonians live out on the docks, in a one room shelter, and it's the only one that gets called out on how they're paying Nord workers much more than Argonians because well, Nords are better or something). Also, that high elf in Windhelm? She thinks the Dunmer are whiners, but she also acknowledges it wasn't easy for her starting out in Windhelm either. Why? Because she's an elf.

I point to Riften. Riften has a heap of problems, is a pretty poor walled city, akin to Windhelm in that it's not the grandest of places, and Riften has both elves and argonians living in it. The Argonians live in the city (one even owns the local inn), and the elves are not relegated to a slum (though the elf and argonian population in Riften is not as high as Windhelm). That book claims this is because the elves actually worked hard. I wonder if it's more because the elves were given a fair chance to begin with.

TL;DR: It's a little silly to say 'well this racism isn't as bad as it could be, so therefore, it's not racism' and 'the Forsworn are bad people, therefore, clearly they didn't have atrocities committed against them'. Ulfric has a lot of skeletons in his closet. That's the entire point. Choosing sides in the civil war isn't meant to be an easy, black and white decision.

I don't see Ulfric using his powers to slay dragons by the dozens and save the land from an ancient arisen evil either.

Heh. I think the closest thing you can get to an honor duel in this game are the various brawls. Try using a dragon shout during a brawl. Go on.

...Gosh, those traditional Nords aren't too happy about it, are they?