I'm sure this is impossible without the CK, but I'm putting this out there to see if it garners any interest.

I've learned a bit about lockpicking in reality (purely as a hobby), as it provides a unique challenge and attainable goal. Basically, its fun. That said, I loved oblivion's lockpicking system because it was the most realistic system I have played in an rpg. Yes I realize we don't have X-ray vision to see a cross-section of the lock, but turning a bobby-pin to a random angle and then using the torque wrench to open it is FAR less realistic. I believe the X-ray system is the only way you can portray the subtle feelings and ticks you get when dealing with a lock in reality. So I am seeking a return to form. (not to mention I would love to see the absolutely useless perk tree for lockpicking completely redone.)

Basically, the new lockpicking system is based entirely on luck, whereas oblivions was based on skill. Which is the way it should be.

But it should be based off of your CHARACTERS skill, not the player's skill.

Because this is a roleplaying game.

Topic title should read [REQ] Morrowind Style Lockpicking

I'd like a Morrowind style lock-pinging as well.

Eh? Didya just tell a fellow that he wants the wrong thing? His title is appropriate to what he wants to convey.

I am not sure which I'd choose to use.I personally prefer how 'Fallout' did it.

I wish they fully lifted the lock-picking mechanic from fallout 3/new vegas instead of just the visual aesthetics,yeah it is different than oblivion's but it is based off of the players skill not the stat really.

In fallout particular locks were skill based- I still remember I would have a notepad that I would use to keep notes about the game,especially doors & locked chests that I was unable to unlock because of my skill lvl at the time.

we do not see anything like that in Skyrim unfortunately.
It is not good when you can open a expert or master chest/door with a very low 'lock-picking' skill level.Sure it is cool in the beginning stages when your maybe lower leveled feeling accomplished by unlocking that high level of lock but it starts to fade pretty quickly after a wile.

I think they could of mixed it up a little ,at the very least have "special" limited chests or doors that you had to remember,take note of their location and then return later on when your skill was finally able to unlock them.

It give you something to not only look forward to but it would give more purpose investing into lock-picking in general.

I'd support this... combined with better loot in higher level chests... sometimes you open a master chest and its like 20 gold

Agreed to this. To further my point on why Oblivion style lockpicking is bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPsvKOk5brM

If you're really good at lockpicking in game as OP said he was, you don't even need to waste a skill in it. You could go through the whole game with 10 lockpicking but opening every single hard lock because you're a pro.

It's more or less designed so that whilst you can open any lock, you'll need to expend a lot more resources (picks) to do it if your skill is too low- since it's largely luck-based you can't really cheese it, and you *will* have to expend 5-7 lockpicks for a Master lock. There's a good balance of player and character skill, and from a game design perspective it's good, but since you quickly get far more lockpicks than you could ever hope to break the whole thing falls down.
If they massively reduced lockpick drops it might go back to being a useful mechanic where skill is important and you can choose to expend a lot of a limited resource to get high level locks open, but I imagine they've currently balanced it for console scrubs who don't have the same level of fine control and would break more.

I completely agree with all of this. The fallout Lockpicking system should have stayed in that game.

It's actually probably not impossible without the CK. In fact, the CK probably wouldn't help any mod that attempted to do this.

As far as I can tell, the Lockpicking game is a .swf just like every other menu. All someone would have to do is alter or replace the .swf just like SkyUI and QD Inventory have done for inventory screens. Since it's done in flash, you could probably turn the lockpicking game into anything, including Oblivion's style of it. You could probably make someone play a platformer to unlock locks, too, or whatever the hell else.

I agree with Mortimer's sentiments, though. I'd much rather see Morrowind style lockpicking. Then again, I also would love to see Morrowind style combat implemented for exactly the same reasons you're all saying MW's lockpicking is better.

Lol, for each lock level you have to get a certain number of points on TETRIS at a particular skill level.

Don't kill me... But I never got a chance to play morrowind. What was the combat in that game like?

Most things in Morrowind worked by testing your skills and attributes against a particular challenge in the form of a dice roll.

For lockpicking, you'd attempt on a door and that would roll some dice you never saw against your lockpicking skill and probably your luck attribute, I don't actually know the exact formula. You couldn't attempt at a door endlessly because your lockpicks would slowly wear down just like weapons and armor in Oblivion (also just like weapons and armor in Morrowind)

Combat was just like that, so when you go to attack an enemy, the game would roll invisible dice behind the scenes tested against the relevant skill (ex: long blades) and the relevant attributes (strength, agility) as well as your current level of stamina. Luck was also involved, since I'm pretty damn sure it's involved in every calculation there is to a small extent. What the outcome of the dice roll vs your current stats determined whether or not you hit and how much damage you did. All of that is a slight over simplification, as obviously all dice rolls also have to be tested against your enemies stats to decide whether or not they dodge and how much damage you do against them.

It made for very character oriented gameplay; by that I mean you couldn't just run in and fight something twice your level and expect to come out on top just because you know how to jump around to avoid getting hit. The same goes for lockpicking in that you couldn't just pull out a lockpick and hope to unlock a lock twice your level just because you're good at the lockpicking game.

While I agree with Knots and others with that opinion, this thread was for OB style lockpicking and since it's a request and not a WIP looking for input, we might just want to leave it for those who like this idea.

On that note, I'm going to start another REQ thread... .

[REQ] Platformer style Lockpicking
Dodge the tumblers as Bobby the Lockpick to open the lock!


Honestly don't even know if I'm kidding or not.

I would use that. Would be more than possible as well, if you can add Space Invaders to the loading screen.

Oblivion's lockpicking minigame is actually somewhat realistic? Huh. Say, have you ever played Still Life? A point and click style adventure game with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld4JI4pcCZY (skip to around 4:00). I always thought that was probably the most realistic lockpicking I'd ever encountered in a game, but then I've never picked a real lock. How realistic is it really?

Picking modern locks is actually a very simple process.

The fallout/Skyrim locks look modern and likewise you would need 2 implements to make it happen. Both of which can be rigged out of small bits of metal (sodering iron bits, etc).

Even so you are more likely to break a lock than you are to break a lock-pick. If the lock pick breaks then it is stuck in the lock, so that is lame mechanic. Better to have to wiggle it back out.

I would think padlocks would be more rpg. Oh well.

I hated Oblivion lock-picking and disagree that it is more real to life (at least for modern locks).

I also strongly disagree that Morrowind was this last vestige of true character based rpg. Far from it. Just because the developers couldn't implement certain things that well does not mean that didn't for the purpose of making it all about the character. But that is off topic.

[edit] I'm more interested in lock bashing.

As long as you include the "auto attempt" button while you're at it, I'm all for this mod. That's the only way I ever pick locks in Oblivion, and I would love to have it back in Skyrim.

Wasn't saying that. I will say, though, that Morrowind does play quite a lot like a 'live action' roguelike in terms of game mechanics. In some RLs you'd just bump up against a locked door and maybe you'd unlock it or maybe your pick would break, just like in just about all RLs you'd bump up against a monster and keep bumping up against them and either you'd win or you'd die all based on your stats, your gear, and how many pots you had.

You can't deny that Oblivion and Skyrim are far more action oriented than TES3. Whether that was Bethesda's intentions seems irrelevant.

I do think this discussion is fairly on-topic considering we're discussing what a better lock picking mechanism would be. On the action side of things, could you describe a more true-to-life minigame someone could implement?

Which is pretty much exactly how MW's lockpicking worked

There is another thread about removing the mini-game and that would is pretty much how mods like Zumbs and http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31424 works. Then one could get caught in the act and that is an interesting dynamic if you are a thief, but largely unnecessary for dungeon diving.

But the OP here seems to want more mini-game. I hated the Oblivion lockpicking mini game because I was so bad at it. The F3/Skyrim lockpicking is not so annoying and vaguely like real lockpicking so I don't mind it.

As for Oblivion and Skyrim being more action oriented - not sure what that means in this context - the lockpicking is not action oriented.

Nor do I think that action oriented means less RPG.

It is action oriented, though. It's more about getting the player to do an action that is anologous to what the 'real thing' is like; the player's actions are more important than the stats of their character, a player that is good at the lockpicking game can defeat any lock at any lockpicking level, just like a player who is good at jumping around and fooling the AI can figure out a way to defeat any enemy at any level. I'm not saying there isn't any of that in Morrowind (there is less of it) and I'm not saying Oblivion or Skyrim are worse games for it, it just is what it is.

I would say that the more a game forces you to play to the stats of your character, the more it forces you to literally 'play a role'. The more a player's skill as a gamer directly influences the outcome of challenges, the less of a pure RPG it is. In a 'pure', 'non action' RPG, the best influence a player has over how well their character will do on a lockpicking challenge will be how they distribute their characters skills, perks, attributes, equipment, or whatever. In an action oriented RPG like Skyrim, things like lockpicking challenges are not tests of their character so much as they are tests of their personal real life skill at the lockpicking game. That's the difference. I'm not saying one or the other is objectively better, again; it just is what it is.

I'm a disbeliever in the idea of pure RPG.

And as nerdy as it is - I played D&D in the early 80s long before the idea that this could ever be done through a video game. With pen and paper there was nothing forcing you to play a role - you chose to play the role - the rules are just limits for a specific role. And the rules of RPG in a sense become increasingly ridiculous - leave it to math nerds to read Tolkien and find a way to numerically evaluate every action a person could do in a fantasy. The best RPG experiences I recall had little to do with the mechanics or the math (which are important) but the degree to which one throws themselves into their role.

So I know what playing a role is in terms of games. Even back with PnP gaming there were different dynamics one could engage in that was tipping the balance of player versus character. One could power game and call it their character's motive for instance. And that is what really undercuts the idea of pure RPG. No matter what every action to push the system or have the player's skill matter one could then justify that as part of the character. This is why since the time of advanced D&D and moving forward most RPG games have been about stretching the stringent rules of "oh you are a mage .. that means no wearing armor'. So starting way back then rule sets were created for bending the and stretching the path of the character. Just that limits are still there for game play sake.

The flip-side of this is that really no matter how you break it down the character is nothing more than an extension of the player.

When I look at Morrowind I see a hobbled version of what they wanted and got with Oblivion and the games that came later. I do not see an intentional attempt to put more emphasis on character skill over the player skill and what I see instead is that they just didn't have the ability to implement what they wanted to. As that was discovered then we get the newer games. I don't think that their vision ever was to create the perfect or pure game with Morrowind and what they are working on now will likely continue to go in this direction. Where the character stats/skills go into the background as determinants in formulas but I don't have to micromanage. And that is what I think kills the RPG experience (fussing over the rules) and that translates into video games by being a thing that breaks immersion.

That to me is the main difference. With PnP RPG it is about diving into the role. With video games (solo at that) it is about staying in the immersion of the game world. At the time Morrowind was out there was a game that was more RPG in the sense that you describe - it was called NWN. I disagree that the presence of rules creates the role more so. Real role playing to me is like a play - you play your part in a story, not a set of gears. Video games cannot support real role playing at this juncture. So what we have instead is immersion into the game world as the prime concern.

Now what I will admit to is that they haven't quite found that balance. With Oblivion you had choice - lockpick or open lock spell, and then modders added bash locks as an option. So ... like most things Skyrim there is less options and it is player skill. Still lockpicking skill matters (I'm told). I would use a mod like Zumbs though. I would agree that if my character's lockpick skill is 20 that an expert lock should be beyond my reach - as long as there are other options: spells, better lockpicks, lock bashing, etc. But they painted themselves into a corner - by focusing only on the picking aspect of lockpicking they made it so that the RPG element of getting caught is not part of the equation (or as much as it ought - need to check the perks). Again that is a limit on the system they created.

However ... for the lockpicking to really matter - something has to be in there to make it matter. My character is in dwemer ruin right now and he just picked an expert lock with a skill of 48 - only to find a sword, ruby, and 8 gold. what I'm not NOT going to do is come back down these 3 levels to find this one chest again because my character couldn't pick the lock and I was not able to because I was railroaded by the skills and rules of the game. Sorry but for the lockpicking to mean that much - there has to be something worth getting.

Sorry if rambling a bit. Makes sense to me.