Oblivion's wasted potential

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:13 pm

I remember reading a book in game that talked about the previous count of Skingrad having a war with the empire, and he got some of the nearby provinces to ally with him in his fight agaisnt the empire.
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Sakura Haruno
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 am

The point is, however, that even if their actual territories are dictated to them via the Elder Council, they're going to ferociously fight over whatever they possibly can, through whatever avenues they possibly can. Whether those avenues are through bitter lobbying of the Elder Council, or using less than ethical means to turn the political machinations, they're not all just going to sit pretty and be perfectly tranquil because they're close to the center of a governing body. If anything, the amount of political danger, tension, and complexity shares correlates with how close one is to the central bureaucracy.

We don't know how long the borders have been defined. It's possible that the borders aren't subject to change anymore. Kvatch wasn't dissolved into anoyther county's territory when the Camoran Usurper hit it.
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Rowena
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:31 pm

In a system where territory is won and lost by warfare and intrigue perhaps, but the Counts of Cyrodiil have their territories governed by a higher government.


A 'higher government' that has probably lost much of its repute, thanks to the fact that it is public knowledge that the Septim line has ended. Plus, I would think that Imperial generals would become more involved in regional politics, to fill in the power vacuum created by the lack of an emperor. Not to mention the Blades, who owe their loyalty to the Emperor, not neccesarily to the Elder Council. The Elder Council does not have direct control over the Imperial Legion and Navy, but has to rely on generals. How many generals would go from following a long established line of emperors (started by Tiber Septim, who is revered as a god) to following an unelected council of aristocrats. I think generals would be more apt to rebel and make themselves (or someone they like) emperor.

The only way the Elder Coucil could maintain power is by appointing an emperor to please the public (presumably one that favors them). They HAVE done this in the past (according to UESP):

Historically, the Elder Council has long been a deciding factor within the outcome of certain events within the history of Tamriel. The first major exercise of their power came in the year 266 of the First Era, wherein it was the Elder Council who appointed Belharza the Man-Bull as the second Emperor of Cyrodiil.
The Elder Council continued it's hold of power throughout Belharza's reign and to Pelagius II's in the Third Era, who dismissed his power-hungry and wealthy Elder Council, allowing only those who aided his repayment of debts - acquired through the Empire's mismanagement by Emperor Uriel Septim II - to reassume their positions.
The reformed Elder Council went on to suffer through the reign of Pelagius III, oft known as "Pelagius the Mad", struggling to maintain a working Empire and stifle his embarrassing conduct. Having endured Pelagius' insanity for years - see The Madness of Pelagius for further information - the Elder Council sent him to an unknown asylum for rehabilitation, electing his wife, Katariah, as Regent Empress.
Following Katariah's death, Uriel Lariat - borne of Katariah and her Imperial consort - assumed the title of Emperor and the name of Uriel IV, overriding the Elder Council's wishes that he not do so. Over the period of his forty-three year reign - as acknowledged by the Elder Council - the members of the Council, separately and as a unified group, made numerous attempts to depose him from the throne.
Ultimately, the rule of Uriel IV was one bespeckled with fruitless efforts and failed ventures, due to the Elder Council's constant interference. Following his death, the Elder Council enjoyed their final triumph, disinheriting his son, Andorak, of the Imperial throne by a unanimous vote, electing in his place a cousin proclaimed as Cephorus II.
Enjoying great power after Katariah's death, and through numerous Emperor's, the members of the Elder Council were eventually brought to heel by Emperor Uriel VI, who was able to decrease their influence through use of "bullying" tactics. Employing an elaborate network of spies, Uriel VI was able to blackmail, and otherwise coerce, the members of the Council to cease their manipulation of him and the Empire as a whole. Furthermore, Uriel VI made frequent use of his right to veto against the Elder Council, styming their efforts wherever possible. So impressive was his vendetta against the Council that the Sage Ugaridge was recorded as having said that "Uriel V conquered Esroniet, but Uriel VI conquered the Elder Council."


Nobility and Generals would jump up to fill the power vacuum.


And they don't have the manpower to do any warring or expansion, they just have guard garrisons.


Fighter's Guild or Blackwood Company? Not to mention the Dark Brotherhood. The counts/countesses do have money you know.
EDIT: Plus they could easily raise/conscript an army from their citizenry, to supplement an army of guards and mercenaries.
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Chris Duncan
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:21 am

We don't know how long the borders have been defined. It's possible that the borders aren't subject to change anymore. Kvatch wasn't dissolved into anoyther county's territory when the Camoran Usurper hit it.

Leyawiin/Elsweyr territory dispute? I'd say they're pretty mutable. And besides,
they're going to ferociously fight over whatever they possibly can, through whatever avenues they possibly can.
Actual territory is just a pebble in the sand of the whole realm of things that could have come to fruition.
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Lil'.KiiDD
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:25 am

A 'higher government' that has probably lost much of its repute, thanks to the fact that it is public knowledge that the Septim line has ended. Plus, I would think that Imperial generals would become more involved in regional politics, to fill in the power vacuum created by the lack of an emperor. Not to mention the Blades, who owe their loyalty to the Emperor, not neccesarily to the Elder Council. The Elder Council does not have direct control over the Imperial Legion and Navy, but has to rely on generals. How many generals would go from following a long established line of emperors (started by Tiber Septim, who is revered as a god) to following an unelected council of aristocrats. I think generals would be more apt to rebel and make themselves (or someone they like) emperor.

The Generals and most of the Elder Council are more concerned with the provinces. The Counts are likely more concerned with holding onto their own territories, especially in the wake of Kvatch's destruction, than expanding. And that's assuming that they're actually interested in expanding.


Fighter's Guild or Blackwood Company? Not to mention the Dark Brotherhood. The counts/countesses do have money you know.

The Fighters Guild has a charter. They defy it, they'll lose the charter. Blackwood Company could probably provide military service, but not enough to fight a land war.

Leyawiin/Elsweyr territory dispute? I'd say they're pretty mutable. And besides,

That's a dispute between provinces, not a dispute between counties within a province.
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Emma Copeland
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:04 am

Yeah it is kinda disappointing to see like 40 empty chairs in that huge room. There could of been loads of quests about doing errands for politicians and possibly becoming one yourself
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Dale Johnson
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:44 am

Yeah it is kinda disappointing to see like 40 empty chairs in that huge room. There could of been loads of quests about doing errands for politicians and possibly becoming one yourself

I suspect they didn't see much point in making a council when they meet behind closed doors. Not that it woiuldn't be pretty cool to have questlines for different council members and possibly being able to eavesdrop on council sessions. Maybe by jumping through the hole in the ceiling from the 2nd floor while invisible...
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Stay-C
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:28 am

That's a dispute between provinces, not a dispute between counties within a province.

Point being? Two sides claim rights to a chunk of land, take their case to the Elder Council, and a resolution is attained. If it can happen on a province-wide scale, it can happen on a county-wide scale. Further, you think Marius Caro just sat idly by, twiddling his thumbs while the Elder Council debated whether or not to transfer half of his county over to Elsweyr? You can bet there were some open appeals, some backdoor deals, or a little bit of both going on.

And besides, we're getting way too hung up on territory grabbing and feudal-esque nonsense. There's a lot more to this inter-squabbling politics pie than that.
-Disputes over trade routes or inter-city economic concerns
-Fighting over Imperial funding
-Securing political alliances via social functions (like marriage, for example)
-Infiltrating rival courts to gain information to better contest other cities for Elder Council favor
-Backdoor dealings with other courts for personal or political motivations
-Dealing with matters of impugned honor
-Etc, etc, etc.
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Tarka
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:39 pm

Point being? Two sides claim rights to a chunk of land, take their case to the Elder Council, and a resoltion is attained. If it can happen on a province-wide scale, it can happen on a county-wide scale. Further, you think Marius Caro just sat idly by, twiddling his thumbs while the Elder Council debated whether or not to transfer half of his county over to Elsweyr? You can bet there were some open appeals, some backdoor deals, or a little bit of both going on.

I think the territory belonged to Elseweyr originally, the Empire decided to absorb it into County Leyawiin. After that, I don't think Count Caro thinks the Elder Council even remembers Leyawiin exists.

And besides, we're getting way too hung up on territory grabbing and feudal-esque nonsense. There's a lot more to this inter-squabbling politics pie than that.
-Disputes over trade routes or inter-city economic concerns
-Fighting over Imperial funding
-Securing political alliances via social functions (like marriage, for example)
-Infiltrating rival courts to gain information to better contest other cities for Elder Council favor
-Backdoor dealings with other courts for personal or political motivations
-Dealing with matters of impugned honor
-Etc, etc, etc.

I don't think we're in much of a position to see it firsthand though, as cool as it would be.
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Fanny Rouyé
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:43 pm

I think the territory belonged to Elseweyr originally, the Empire decided to absorb it into County Leyawiin. After that, I don't think Count Caro thinks the Elder Council even remembers Leyawiin exists.

Even so, appeals or under the table deals. Caro stood to gain if the Council moved in his favor; it would appear he was successful. And, if he doesn't think the Council thinks Leyawiin exists afterward, then he's not going to work to change or affect that?

I don't think we're in much of a position to see it firsthand though, as cool as it would be.

Why? Because of the crisis? If the guilds and factions of Cyrodiil can operate business-as-usual, then so can its nobles. It's no time like a crisis to think of bettering oneself at the expense of others.
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abi
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:01 am

Why? Because of the crisis? If the guilds and factions of Cyrodiil can operate business-as-usual, then so can its nobles. It's no time like a crisis to think of bettering oneself at the expense of others.

No, because we're not one of their underlings. The Great Houses may have relied on mercenaries for some things, but most political intrigue was carried out in secret by trusted underlings belonging to their House. Or by hired assassins, in which case the person sent to carry out the assassination usually wouldn't even know who bought their services.
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Tasha Clifford
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:58 am

i'm getting rid of my post
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Ella Loapaga
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:38 pm

No, because we're not one of their underlings. The Great Houses may have relied on mercenaries for some things, but most political intrigue was carried out in secret by trusted underlings belonging to their House. Or by hired assassins, in which case the person sent to carry out the assassination usually wouldn't even know who bought their services.


But I think to assume that perfect secrecy would always be attained, heck even be attained most of the time is naive. Mistakes will be made, people will talk, and stuff will happen, just like in the real world. Tamriel may be set in a fantasy world, but that doesn't mean people behave that much differently than the real world.

The Fighters Guild has a charter. They defy it, they'll lose the charter. Blackwood Company could probably provide military service, but not enough to fight a land war.


But the Counts/Countesses could conscript/recruit an army of their own citizenry to supplement a mercenary/guard force. Also, given the destruction of Kvatch what makes you think they wouldn't be interested in expanding. The strong pray upon the weak, and since Kvatch is without a Count and weak, why wouldn't they try to get some of its resources?
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Philip Rua
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:24 am

During a time of crisis, everyone would be stressed to keep his/her power. (In times of war, it's quite easy to send some troops away to defend the city and "accidentally" make them build a fort on a neighbouring county's land.) Differently put: They would do everything to meet their selfish and egocentric goal.

Let's say the Fighter's and Mage's guild are hired by the empire to provide extra protection for the counties, they would have a completely different stance on recruiting new members. The Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood would struggle to perform their missions, as all security has been immensely heightened of course!

But no, we don't see anything of this. Only a generic << we don't have no heir' >> or << Kvatch is in ruins >> dialogue.

I'd love Bethesda to make TES V with the same engine and graphics, if they would just devote all their time to lore, quests, factions, ..
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Trista Jim
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:21 am

How is there debate, when devs admit to missing the politics they cut from the story? They even left parts of the quests in the game. One of your first quests as Duke of Kvatch was making smiling mandatory. Next was to pay the gods' "mournful rain" bill. That would've emptied the coffers, but good old Goldwine already spent the money for his wyld seks parties. So you see, there's plenty of politics in the life of a duke.

In all my seriousness, if the Grey Fox had been the Prophet of Anvil/Underking, as he was in my game, and the Prophet murdered the Redguards in the names of Love and Mercy, uniting the city under marshal law and using it as a bulwark against Umaril and a staging ground for his master plan to finish the elves and Dragonborn, then Oblivion would have had real dimension. See, I the player shouldn't have to be forced to look for alternative stories for my characters who are actually cool.
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JESSE
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:52 am

But I think to assume that perfect secrecy would always be attained, heck even be attained most of the time is naive. Mistakes will be made, people will talk, and stuff will happen, just like in the real world. Tamriel may be set in a fantasy world, but that doesn't mean people behave that much differently than the real world.

Well, there are some bits that can be uncovered. Count Indarys's wife was murdered, and Count Indarys is the main suspect. Count Caro married the daughter of the Countess of Chorrol, who promptly tortures prisoners. Count Terentius seems to turn a blind eye towards skooma, since his own son is addicted. And Count Hassildor is secretly a vampire.

But the Counts/Countesses could conscript/recruit an army of their own citizenry to supplement a mercenary/guard force. Also, given the destruction of Kvatch what makes you think they wouldn't be interested in expanding. The strong pray upon the weak, and since Kvatch is without a Count and weak, why wouldn't they try to get some of its resources?

I don't think they'd try to openly take over Kvatch, for two reasons. First, it's be open rebellion. There's not yet enough assurance that the Legions won't be able to put them down to warrant it. Second, each city has it's own Count; if anything, they would try to get one of their relatives or offspring to be the new Count of Kvatch.
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Bambi
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:21 am

No, because we're not one of their underlings. The Great Houses may have relied on mercenaries for some things, but most political intrigue was carried out in secret by trusted underlings belonging to their House. Or by hired assassins, in which case the person sent to carry out the assassination usually wouldn't even know who bought their services.

So because we do not start the game working for them, we can never work for them?
By that logic, since we do not start the game in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood, we can never be in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood.

Well, there are some bits that can be uncovered. Count Indarys's wife was murdered, and Count Indarys is the main suspect. Count Caro married the daughter of the Countess of Chorrol, who promptly tortures prisoners. Count Terentius seems to turn a blind eye towards skooma, since his own son is addicted. And Count Hassildor is secretly a vampire.

But the point remains that it's all just information without a use. That's the whole point of this thread, that Oblivion had lots of good plot hooks that were never acted on.
To dissuade the argument that the world has to have some plot hooks that aren't acted on, I believe this:
snip
is more than adequate at pointing out the developers wanted to do political intrigue and properly sewed the seeds, but they ran out of time to reap them. And plot hooks that are contained within the boundaries of exploration are present yet not acted on, that's not a good thing. Akavir is a giant conglomeration of plot hooks that is currently not being acted on. But that's OK, because no game has Akavir within the boundaries of exploration. The extra-provincial plot hooks in the Pocket Guide to the Empire v3 are not used. But that's OK< because Oblivion does not have those extra provinces within the boundaries of exploration. Putting these plot hooks within the boundaries of exploration only to let them trail off to nothing is bad design and a hallmark of not properly budgeting time.


I don't think they'd try to openly take over Kvatch, for two reasons. First, it's be open rebellion. There's not yet enough assurance that the Legions won't be able to put them down to warrant it. Second, each city has it's own Count; if anything, they would try to get one of their relatives or offspring to be the new Count of Kvatch.

It depends on how you define openly taking over Kvatch. If we mean by military force, as you're arguing against, then I have to agree with you. However, there are a whole host of other ways to take over Kvatch. An appeal to the Elder Council that Kvatch needs overseeing by a neighboring benefactor until a successor can be properly chosen. Stirring up land disputes, or disputes over county resources like mines and the like. Allowing the Elder Council to put a figurehead Count in charge of Kvatch and then trying to control his administration by subterfuge and infiltration. Etc, etc, etc. And all the various pathways and avenues to attain those goals.
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Honey Suckle
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:51 pm

So because we do not start the game working for them, we can never work for them?
By that logic, since we do not start the game in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood, we can never be in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood.

There wouldn't be much opportunity for advancement in such an employ, it'd be like one of the dead-end factions like the Order of the White Stallion or the Order of the Sacred Blood. And they probably hire out of their court, not some intrepid adventurers.
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Rik Douglas
 
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Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:26 pm

There wouldn't be much opportunity for advancement in such an employ, it'd be like one of the dead-end factions like the Order of the White Stallion or the Order of the Sacred Blood.

That's purely an assumption; steady work for the nobility could result in several quest chains with unique outcomes based on the different count/countesses interacted with. Advancement could mean anything from getting special benefits in cities one serves, becoming a right-hand man to a count or countess, or even becoming nobility by suasion of the Elder Council and the influence of a patron.

And they probably hire out of their court, not some intrepid adventurers.

For some of the more delicate objectives, hiring out of the court would be suicide. If I'm going to send someone to infiltrate or gather information about another count, or I'm going to send someone to do some dirty work, or if I'm going to send someone to handle a delicate matter in which my name probably shouldn't be involved, then picking someone from my very own court would be a dead giveaway. Besides, as the player becomes more powerful, more of a prospective asset, then their ability begins to outstrip that of a court.

And that's neglecting the further interesting plot hooks that could have resulted from a court that can't be trusted or a court that's full of sycophants.
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Scared humanity
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:51 am

That's purely an assumption; steady work for the nobility could result in several quest chains with unique outcomes based on the different count/countesses interacted with. Advancement could mean anything from getting special benefits in cities one serves, becoming a right-hand man to a count or countess, or even becoming nobility by suasion of the Elder Council and the influence of a patron.

It isn't a Great House, there wouldn't be much to do. They aren't waging private war against each other, they're probably doing little more than spying on each other and contemplating possible alliances if the government falls apart. At least for the moment.

For some of the more delicate objectives, hiring out of the court would be suicide. If I'm going to send someone to infiltrate or gather information about another count, or I'm going to send someone to do some dirty work, or if I'm going to send someone to handle a delicate matter in which my name probably shouldn't be involved, then picking someone from my very own court would be a dead giveaway. Besides, as the player becomes more powerful, more of a prospective asset, then their ability begins to outstrip that of a court.

And that's neglecting the further interesting plot hooks that could have resulted from a court that can't be trusted or a court that's full of sycophants.

They wouldn't hire someone unless they can trust that the person in question is loyal to them and can be trusted not to betray their trust. Or if they're from a reliable and discreet service that doesn't ask questions.
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CArla HOlbert
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:07 am

[snip]
Putting these plot hooks within the boundaries of exploration only to let them trail off to nothing is bad design and a hallmark of not properly budgeting time.

and just for the record, I'd rather a game be completed on time, than worked on long after deadline. In the end, it's keeping good peoples' jobs that matters more than a just illusive, badasser's story.

but yeah, must've been bad time management. Such a game is not beyond Besthesda to make.
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Reanan-Marie Olsen
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:21 am

and just for the record, I'd rather a game be completed on time, than worked on long after deadline. In the end, it's keeping good peoples' jobs that matters more than a just illusive, badasser's story.

but yeah, must've been bad time management. Such a game is not beyond Besthesda to make.


I never thought of the deadline relating to employment before. You work in the games industry? Or just have experiences with deadlines?
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Mélida Brunet
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:15 am

It isn't a Great House, there wouldn't be much to do. They aren't waging private war against each other, they're probably doing little more than spying on each other and contemplating possible alliances if the government falls apart. At least for the moment.

You seem bound and determined to make out people in power as static individuals simply because they have specific military limitations placed on them.

That "little more than spying on each other and contemplating possible alliances" is the fuel for nearly an unlimited amount of scenarios that can be stretched out into a huge web of quests. That they can't exact physical warfare against each other is irrelevant. The Elder Council, other Counts, and how they can be manipulated, can earn action and dangerous consequences just as much as a blade can. To bring up a short sampling again, we have: Trade agreements, Imperial funding, Social networks and alliances, disputes over economic assets, matters of impugned honor. Never mind that small little issue of a whole county seat that got eviscerated by Daedra and is now sitting empty and devoid of leadership.

To be honest, this whole argument chain is sounding like, "Thick politics are not present in Cyrodiil, because Cyrodiil has no thick politics."

They wouldn't hire someone unless they can trust that the person in question is loyal to them and can be trusted not to betray their trust. Or if they're from a reliable and discreet service that doesn't ask questions.

So they require the approval of stewards, or they require you to do a few tasks beforehand to prove loyalty and results. Starting out with those less than savory quests, you're a throwaway individual whom they can deny ever knowing if worst comes to worst. The point is that it's impossible to declare that there will never be viable scenarios in which you could work your way into the employ of nobility.

and just for the record, I'd rather a game be completed on time, than worked on long after deadline. In the end, it's keeping good peoples' jobs that matters more than a just illusive, badasser's story.

but yeah, must've been bad time management. Such a game is not beyond Besthesda to make.

I do agree that between the options of half-finished and past-deadline, I would rather have half-finished, for the sake of keeping Bethesda well-oiled and relatively undamaged. But you are fully correct when you say that such things do not lie outside Bethesda's ability.
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Neil
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:33 am

I never thought of the deadline relating to employment before. You work in the games industry? Or just have experiences with deadlines?

The latter.
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jason worrell
 
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Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:37 am

Would rather not have something half-finished that I have to pay full price for. I don't want huge gaping holes and obvious tell-tale signs of left-out content. Either get it all done in time for the deadline, or finish it post deadline as a "sorry, the evil powers that be made us publish this game before we were ready, but we'll finish it soon so you won't have wasted your $60 to $80." Or just scrub all signs of left-out content from the game so that no one is the wiser.
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saharen beauty
 
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