Hey guys,
I have an interesting conundrum.

I'm working on a large worldspace project, and its coming along swimmingly!
However there appears to be a problem. But first, the Setup:

Setup:
Two modders: KatoPlato (me), and Tophloaf
Both Creation Kits are up to date. Version Control activated on both systems. CK version 1.6.89.0
The Mod is a total conversion of Skyrim. Using a no terrain Skyrim.esm of about 17MB
No problems with the following files: Westeros.esm (base worldspace with WRLD, LAND, LTXT), Terrain.esp (Small changes made to the land to make it look nice, will merge soon).
Big problems with the following files: MapLocations.esp (location markers and XMarkerHeadings for use with the in game map), TheNorth.esp (only unique building assets in this plugin, and placed in the first city area for Object LOD).
More than 30 unique objects created and successfully imported into the Creation Kit and placed in a unique Worldspace.

Problem:
MapLocations.esp
- Problems on his CK but not on mine
- Toph created the file, I haven't touched it as far as editing it in any way is concerned. I can load it up just fine in the CK and in game, and both times it works.
- Toph has not been able to load it in game and has not had luck making it work.
- We can redo this file if push comes to shove.
TheNorth.esp
- Problems on my CK but not on his
- I created this file, and put in all of the assets, which right now, are just buildings that our fellow modders created in SketchUp and 3DS Max
- We have both edited it to some degree. He places the buildings that I import.
- Some of the new assets get displaced to the 0,0 cell in the worldspace nearly every time. There doesn't appear to be a relation to who moves the objects, but every time certain objects seem to be displaced to 0,0. And this appears to manifest only in my CK. In his CK, everything is where it should be.
- We would rather not have to redo this file...


So, guys what could be causing this?
I'll provide more info if needed.

Are the REFRs "Deleted"?

No not deleted
Does that matter?

Cell 0,0 isn't necessarily a bad thing if you're dealing with persistent refs. Do any of the displaced objects get used as script properties anywhere?

No they aren't used as properties for any scripts.

The thing is this:
If say, Toph places a couple of walls. Saves TheNorth.esp. No check in or check out. Sends the ESP to me. I load it up. Those walls that he placed find themselves in 0,0 in the center of that cell, but their angles are preserved.

This does not happen with every asset, but some very specific ones every time, without fail.

I'm going to experiment with creating another object and use the same nif, then try to have him place that and see if its the nif. But I doubt this will yeild results, since I made all nifs in the same fashion.

Should I try something else? Some other experiment to figure out what's happening?

Does he ever do any merging through version control on his side before sending you data to merge? In a situation like what you're doing only one person should have the version control set. It's quite possible that both of you using it is setting data in the plugin neither of you is wanting.

Hmm. There's an interesting point. Ok. Will check this out.
I hadn't thought of it like that.
Maybe that is the issue... It sounds plausible.

He did at the very beginning. But he hasn't for a very long time.
So, ok, only one person should be merging. It's certainly easier to handle everything that way.

Thank you!

Just remember you'll need to be sure he ends up with your updated file after you merge data. VC does not like it one bit when things get out of sync with each other.

OK, guys.

So I have TESVGecko 0.1.0, and TESVSnip 4.3.1.s2
I have all my plugins backed up.

I looked at TheNorth.esp, tried a few things...
The thing that worked was deleting the ONAM record from it.
Suddenly all the objects appeared where they were supposed to be.

My question is, isn't the ONAM record important?

Gecko 0.1.0 is outdated, 0.2.0 came out already. You should be using that instead.

You should not be using Snip at all though, because you're going to corrupt your mod if you keep at it that way.

Yes, the ONAM subrecords are critical if you intend your mod to remain an ESM file that still functions properly.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I have questions....

What does the absence of the ONAM subrecord cause to become nonfunctional?
What are things that rely on it being there in the ESM?
Why do ESP files have this ONAM subrecord? Same reasons as the ESM?
Can two ONAMs conflict somehow? For instance the ONAM in the ESP conflicting with the ONAM in the ESM?

Can I copy an existing ONAM from one file to another? Will this cause problems?
What sort of information does this subrecord hold?

I'm looking at this
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:Mod_File_Format

I cant find info on it...
Could someone enlighten me?

I don't know who I'm quoting here, but I found this which satisfies some of my questions, not all.

"They're just a list of form IDs the mod is meant to override. It's only of value in a true ESM (or a false-flagged ESP). Without an ONAM list, an ESM can't even touch content in another ESM, and an ESP can sometimes crash the game."

Further questions:
Would this make any difference if the ONAM subrecord was absent from a pure terrain ESM?

Also, I'm using Snip to diagnose a problem i might be having, it seems to load mods quicker than Gecko. Right now Gecko crashes whenever it loads ESPs that have an ESM dependency.

The ONAM list is only necessary when an ESM is editing another ESM file. Skyrim.esm of course counts. So if your ESM is altering vanilla terrain, you'll need an ONAM list. If the ONAM list is absent you'll be lucky if all that happens is your edits simply not showing up. Usually the landscape squares just go missing, but sometimes the game will crash too.

And I can't say this strongly enough, don't save whatever you're doing with Snip. You'll corrupt that mod faster than anything. Its bugs have yet to be fixed in a publicly available version.

FWIW, TESVEdit is just about ready for public beta and will generate an ONAM list automatically for an ESM file that needs them. Gecko should do this too if your file is an ESP being turned into an ESM.

They're working on a total conversion*, using a stripped down skyrim.esm. Is the ONAM still important in their case?

- Hypno

*an interesting one I might add..."the north" etc...this mod'll probably be finished before the last two books get released!

@Arthmoor:
Yeah I know about the Snip issues. Trust me dude, I am NOT saving with that program. Although I started using Sharlikran's TESVSnip Dev 4.4a, which is using the right compression library and the truncation bug is fixed. But once bitten twice shy. I actually make a copy of the file I want to peek at, then I open the copy in Snip if I want to look at something in Snip. I then delete that copy.

Really exciting stuff with the imminent release of TESVEdit. I just read up on that thread, now I can't contain my anticipation!
---------------
@Hypno88:
Dude, thank you for the encouragement!
We're going to release the mod in "chapters." The first one is The North. I have no idea when we'll be able to release the first chapter, but as a fan of the ASOIAF series myself, I can't wait to see it in action!

---------------
Yes, the mod I'm working on is a total conversion. It won't be editing Skyrim at all.
Although, we are reusing some of the vanilla objects, not many. Also, I'll have to open up Arthmoor's LAL to get a handle on the script fragment for beginning a new Main Quest from the Main Menu. But, that can wait for another couple of months.

I figured out that the main culprit was MapLocations.esp. Anytime I loaded that up, it caused the object displacement without fail. I'm working without an ONAM record. The only things we have right now that are concrete, are buildings models, trees and general shrubbery, and the terrain. Also a couple of characters. No scripting has begun yet.

------------------------------
Right now, I'm having Object LOD issues.

I can generate it without texture errors. I do get a lot of "model is too complex" errors which I understand and can fix.

The Problem:
All the placed objects become scattered. They seem to retain their z height but they are scattered. Even a few of the vanilla objects that were placed are offset in the obj lod.
I'm the person delving deep into the technical side of this mod, and I don't quite understand why the objects in lod are displaced like this.

This is the BTO
[img]http://i.imgur.com/h91re.jpg?1[/img]


This is the layout
[img]http://i.imgur.com/kR5ZJ.jpg?1[/img]


The models are just placeholders for now. The final versions are being created in 3DS Max and will be imported into the CK when complete.

It is if any of the remains of Skyrim.esm that are left are being edited by the TC. It doesn't matter where the ESMs originate. The ONAM system still has to be used if one ESM edits another.