Player versus Player (PVP) Summary

Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:11 am

Findel24 and I are going to be summarizing our wish lists. Please remember even though we post things on the Forums, the development team has their own ideas as well. They may or may not use any of our ideas or already thought of the idea we posted. They currently do not have any content to release at this time. I will summarize what we are looking for in PvP and I will try to use your name when credit is due. If I miss your name and you care, please send me a PM or post it here and I will make changes to the summary. Summary is for quick referencing for new users and developers to what we have posted thus far.

Work in progress - please no posting until I remove this.

Summary -

1) Fallout MMORPG must have PvP included in the game. Fallout MMO is not Fallout MMO without PvP. The diehard PvP Fallout fans were earning for PvP since the beginning - Credit - everyone who wants PvP.

2) I want Fallout MMO to be a real PvP game, but different and I definitely want sandbox feature in. Sometimes different is good enough. I like to kill real players, not mobs. Show me any PvP based game out there that is worth "anything" right now - Barakus

3) Full PvP server with full loot PvP - we will not see in Fallout MMO. What we should have are only a 3 server option:

A) PvP full FFA (Free For All) servers (5% safe zones in newbie areas and clan cities) with full loot but (with availability to save your gear/inventory items for an expensive amount of money/caps).

B) PvE (Player versus Environment)servers with 60% safe zones and no loot from PvP.

C) RP(Role playing)/PvE servers with 100% safe zones and only duels/mini-games for pvp.

Credit - Barakus

4) Another possible solution is to have a dedicated PvE and a dedicated PvP server(s) with FREE (no cost to us - no it does not cost you $15 dollars per transfer nonsense) server zones (teleport) from PvE to PvP and back again. Reason for this is to allow for greater scalability and reducing the chance for the lag monster to raise its ugly head. It will also allow PvP characters to prepare to enter the PvP zone and appeal to the PvE population. It will also allow PvP characters (players) to relax if they are suffering from "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)" . Of course, good coding which I expect from Chris's team (and database calls) will also reduce the chance of lag as well. Credit - AnderlornLOTRO

5) Another possibility is a mix PvP and PvE server - to activate PvP, the user switches a setting inside their control panel - before entering PvP mode, there will be a - "You are about to enter PvP mode. Are you sure - Yes or No". Tight controls will need to be active to help reduce or eliminate exploitation - Credit AnderlornLOTRO

6) Different sizes of PvP zones mixed in with the PvE zone. Player will be warned before entering and exiting PvP zones. Unlike some games out there, there will be more than 2 PvP zones and will be different sizes. Credit - Pretty much the PvP community and standard for most MMOs out there today.

7) In that case I hope there will be servers with your ways of PVP handling, and "normal" servers without. Making the game all around PVP "open" would be a reason for me to play it not. I hope they will find a way to make the game interesting for all groups of gamers. Credit - Nimiria

8) Certain cities like NCR and New Reno will be PvP zones with rules or possible NPC or player class interdiction. Anderlorn's Note: Hmm, maybe a PC can be a town Sheriff, allowing them to kill or capture any PvPer without suffering any negative results and may get paid for it by the server. There will need to be a limit on how many Sheriff deputies and how long the deputies can leave town (hey everyone needs a vacation) before the server marks them AWAL (AWOL) and fires them. This may take too much coding but hey this is a wish list. Also, there has to be a PvP buffer around the city to help prevent people from exploiting PvP with PvE. The buffer will be large enough to chase people down if you are fast enough to get within range or have a vehicle. If you can not get the PvPer by the time he exists the PvP area then just admit that you epically failed. Credit- Saveron (City PvP) and AnderlornLOTRO (Sheriff idea)

9) No Unrestricted Open PvP, some of us are purely PVE in preference (indeed many of us) - Credit Neowolf - The PvE crowd appears to outnumber us PvPers.

10) PvP Only - I think that if you get killed, you should be able to be fully looted. No cowardice here, people. This is Fallout and people are supposed to kill other people for their stuff. Want to make sure you still have your stuff? Stash it somewhere. Go to some random patch of desert, bury it inside and make a map. Or buy a house, and lot of locks and traps. Or, if you're poor, bury your stuff in a grave. You can even make a small room inside the grave with a box inside and put a mine that only you know how to get out without exploding it. - Credit Slaughter Manslaught

11) Player groups can also build large fortifications (hideouts (more stealthy), forts (good protection), bases (good luck) (below ground bases - stealthy and good protection) with traps, locks, vaults (vault-door like the vaults would be cool!) (maybe force fields and robot guards like what we saw in FO2 in the advance underground base depending on their ranking and how wealthy they are). Credit - AnderlornLOTRO (maybe others)

12) If possible, Game Developer or Game Master refereed PvP events. Maybe instead of capture the flag, two or more factions can battle each other to capture a major sophisticated system (weapon, medical, GECK, beneficiary technological item\system, and maybe even a nuke for some major PvP fun - kicks a whole group back to PvE and can not enter for so many days or something while the nuking party gets to either brave the rays or wear protective gear to take what is left - if they have a Geck or an improved GECK that purges radiation - they can possibly take over the land). I guess this can also be a PvE instance and other factions can enter the instance at the same time. Although a Game Master event would be more fun.
Credit - AnderlornLOTRO

13) Player created and run towns and outposts. Whether its done as a guild thing, or just players deciding to all live in the same area, I think that we should be able to create our own little bastions of humanity that others can come to. Or say with Number 2 above, I set up residence in an abandoned building or Vault, then someone comes along and does the same in a building near by, then some come and start setting up little huts around the area. We then decide as a collective team to build a wall for protection. - Anderlorn's Note: This will work in PvP, not too sure in PvE - may be boring depending on available options and coding possibilities. I can see this working if we have the City PvP mentioned above (#8). If the player citizens are ready, they can convert from PvE to PvP if this is one way PvP is could be ran. Credit - Slowjack

14) Vehicles (Humvees, Tanks, Jeeps, APCs, and Special) and aircraft (fighters and helicopters) - one thing about aircraft - most programmers worry about resources it will require (infrastructure and programming), game balance, product release dates, our computers resources, and the Y-axis (at least that has been the most talked about) which usually prevents things that fly. I can see ground vehicles but not flying vehicles. However here is my begging wish - PLEASE CHRIS! Can we have aircraft (maybe at later date?)?! ... lol ... You can even include man portable SAMS, SAM launchers, and other aircraft for anti-air. Credit - I will say everyone except maybe the begging or maybe even the aircraft... lol

15) A mass array of weapons, weapon customizations (scopes, assault grips, folding stock, laser pointers), gunsmithing crafting and options (make our own weapons or combine two existing weapons to make an over/under HK G3 and a Milkor M32 MGL (MGL-140)) >

16) About LOTRO -The one thing I want, is variety. I want the quests to be different, not just, Collect this many lynx hides. Or Kill this many of this monsters. Anderlorn's Note: I truly loathe the LOTRO trait system - (kill 120 for basic and then 240 for Advance for only 1 point of trait - face palm) Traits, virtues, etc should be done the original Fallout way for PvE and PvP. As for PvE and PvP crafting, some things will be more readily available than others and availability of more advance things in cities, old military bases, etc. It surely can not be monotonous and take a boat load of materials to craft something (there is lots of scrap around). Besides, the more things that go boom the better. Credit - Hob

17) Here is an interesting PvP suggestion -

Instead of servers or instances and a different outlook of the PvP switch on or off in the control panel.

Faction based PvP.

By joining a faction you declare your allegiance to one side and your opposition to all others. Anyone not in your faction is fair game (note - AnderlornLOTRO thinks it shouldn't matter if you are in a faction - once you declare a faction, you are fair game to anyone and it is up to the faction to decide what they do with their own infighting). If you don't declare, you are neutral and off limits for PvP.

Examples of factions:
Vault Dwellers.
The New Reno Mafia.
The Shi.
and those are just the old ones...

Credit - Sogi-ya

AnderlornLOTRO's Note - I think this is a good idea, however I think the PvP versions of the well known original factions should have a slight change to their new name (or vice versa) so PvE lovers can also join some of these factions. For example: The BOS or Brotherhood of Steel for PvP should be The Brotherhood of True Steel or The Brotherhood of Steel Storm Troopers (or whatever).

This leads to the next thought, should PvP players have some sort of benefit being in one of these well known factions? If so, I definitely would promote strict requirements if this is the case. For example, anyone joining the Brotherhood of Steel can not kill anyone who is unarmed and does not have a considerably high unarmed combat skill - ko and wounding is ok.

This may require too much coding in which case perhaps PvPers should create their own factions and once a faction is declared you are now in PvP. Only PvE mobs and PvP players can be targeted. PvE players CAN NOT be directly targeted or affected by AoE that is was directed at an in game inanimate object. To add to the realism to game, perhaps missed shots or AoE at targeted PvPers can still affect PvE players? That way, they will not stick around during fire fights or at least take cover. PvE players can not trade or heal PvP faction members. And the only way to trade is through an Auction Hall which could be called a pawn shop in FOOL.

18) Solo-friendly PvP - whether by superior tactics, by in game skills, and/or just plain lucky, I should still have a chance. For example: I am a bad ??? in Krav Maga and even though I am disarmed, I should be able to be given a chance to win by closing the distance and tying my opposition into a pretzel, take his\her firearm, assassinate them (aka shot to the head), and loot them to save my hide.

Or armed with my Barrett M82A1 .50 Sniper Rifle, I should be able to snipe a target without them instantly knowing my position like in real life - I mean really, I could be up to a mile away with this weapon. And if need be, I can either change my position or lay down suppressive fire (taking aim and shooting but not a careful aim - which is relative when speaking about a .50 caliber round).

Or if need be - HASTY RETREAT!!! as the Company of the Opposing Faction approaches.

Credit - Barakus
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:11 pm

Heh ..good job with this.Btw ive changed from 80% to 60% at pve servers ,after all even on the pve servers if there is no loot they have to make alitle more pvp too.

Ps: I realy hope the devs look in this forum and chose some of the best idea that our brains share.AND ALL FOR FREE :D Image

I am the Formless in all forms.Strenght si the only measure ,all things can be resolved with violence and blood share.
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Karl harris
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:35 pm

I hope so too.

Made the change.

Keep in mind everyone this is a work in progress and I have a lot of content to review. Afterwards, I (we) will start on other topic summaries. I will also post - What am I missing or anything to add here when I "think" I am done.

Also there are a lot of redundant posts or conversations so I may not credit you or may miss a subject because it is hidden in a conversation - please bear with me.
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lydia nekongo
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:58 am

In my opinion there should not be multiple servers in the sense that one would be PvP.. One would be PvE and one RP. That just spread the player base way too thinly. It should be lumped into One PvP server and thats it. Full loot FFA PvP. A Great example would be Darkfall. Theres literally almost no safe zones except the starter towns. This makes for a interesting game world with a lot of action at every corner of the world.

There should be No flagging system what so ever. You are in pvp mode 24'7. Flagging is hand holding. and Hand holding isn't fun.

Fallout is FFA Full loot PvP at heart and we all know it. Stop trying to make this game another wow clone with safe zones and a flagging system. We don't need another mmo with this theme park features.

Thats my 2 cents. I'm sure I could comment more.. but thats all for now.
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Damien Mulvenna
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:13 pm

I hear you and wish it could be so, however it is impossible to make it pure PvP - gamesas needs to make money to keep our addiction alive - If you make it PvP only, the dream will die within a year.

The simple fact is the numbers - PvE outnumbers us probably 2 to 1 if not more. As a company, gamesas would make a HUGE strategic mistake not to include PvE.

PvE and RP (role playing) can be mixed. Some people like to role play and others not. You can even Role Play in PvP. There should be a way to mark your alt as RP or not. That way mundane peoples will not interrupt your role playing experience - "You looking at me beeping beep beep! You want to die by lead poisoning beep beep!"

To me the only safe zones in PvP is Guild fortifications, PvP towns (well maybe not unless you are guild citizen), and single pc housing (maybe a former vault fortified with Robotic armaments (like the one seen on Aliens (2) uncut version).

And oh no not a WoW clone. It just needs to satisfy both PvP and PvE. The PvP will be hard core and PvE will be hard core in its own right. I disagree not allowing people to switch back to PvE. Maybe a guild needs to run an escort for a new member which is just one possibility.
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:13 am

Darkfall is a gankfest sadly and only zerg guilds can survive(is a game with no story at all and just pk/pvp/gank).Im playng it and it was fun for the first 2 weeks but it end to be a gankfest were only strong zerg guild can be succesfull.You wont see full ffa with full loot in fallout.As for wow you seem to like it alot if you talk about it lol.

PS: Just read some more posts about pvp and how the loot will work in pvp for falout online. Image

I am the Formless in all forms.Strenght si the only measure ,all things can be resolved with violence and blood share.
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Jhenna lee Lizama
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:32 pm

I fail to understand how there would be ZERO PvE on a PvP server. There is ALWAYS PvE on any kind of server no matter what. You can't have it JUST be PvP.. there has to be Mobs and such. So honestly I just don't understand the need for a PvE server.

And why in gods name should Guild fortifications be a safe zone? Thats a huge No! Thats the last place you should go for a 'safe zone'. Don't you want sieges n such?

Edit: I beg to differ that only large zerg guilds survive. I'm in a small pk guild and we do fine.

Edit: and I hate wow sir. I was just saying that some of the things you were saying sounded like something that came out of a themepark mmo.
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:26 pm

Ok, here is what I mean by safe zone - an opposing PvP raid not only has to penetrate the guild's fortifications (armor, cannons, lasers, moats filled with crap, whatever) but they also have to kill the members who are firing back. Then if they are underground or have undergrounds forts - have fun!

Maybe a nuke will take care of them or metric butt-load ton of a PvP raid?! Or if they allowed aircraft, a bunker busting bombs\missiles.

I don't mean PvE type safe zones or areas where there are one shoters although cannons probably would be nasty.

You need a PvE zone or server for people who like PvE ONLY or if PvPers want to retire or take a break from it. Some people like both.

I think we are mixing up terminology here. You are coming from a gamer safe zone and coming from a military safe zone. A military safe or should I say safer zone is a fortification\base that can be brought under siege but at least you will not have to immediately worry about being off or if you are - maybe the assassin will be caught.

So YES - Siege away if you can. Expect a good fight on some forts and others will be easy and others almost impossible unless you get other guilds to join you.
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Natalie Taylor
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:46 pm

I don't see how PvE 'Zones' or servers where you can't kill someone just b/c its that kind of zone fits in with the whole Fallout setting.

The world is a dangerous place after the war. and the game should be that way.
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Riky Carrasco
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:08 pm

I think we are mixing up terminology here. You are coming from a gamer safe zone and coming from a military safe zone. A military safe or should I say safer zone is a fortification\base that can be brought under siege but at least you will not have to immediately worry about being sniped or robbed or if you are - maybe the assassin will be caught.

So YES - Siege away if you can. Expect a good fight on some forts and others will be easy and others almost impossible unless you get other guilds to join you.

Think of a PVE server as the original fallout and the PvP server or many different size zones or converted cities as True Fallout - how it should have been from the beginning - both follow canon and both appeal to the different desires to addiction.
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Krista Belle Davis
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:24 pm

One more thing - I don't consider PvE mobs within a PvP server or instance to be true PvE - sure by definition it is PvE but at any time you can have a nasty PvP fight and a two front battle.

A PvE instance or server is pure PvE - absolutely no PvP and the quests are PvE with no possibility of being interrupted by PvP and in most cases fellow PvEers.

A PvP server\instance can have PvE mobs but it is still consider PvP.

I can see PvE mobs within PvP to interrupt camping, for resources such as crafting, and for ascertaining special items such advance weapon systems and maybe even Nukes or Gecks. What would be ideal is battles against GMs or developers to get these resources or advance toys.
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Amber Ably
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:29 am

Hmm, maybe get rid of PvE altogether except for the really special items.

There will be resources all over PvP area. One will need may skills, primarily search, computer or hacking, and mechanical\electrical engineering.

Some of the resources will be vaults that died, have to hack in and done your NBC suits or power armor.

Some will be in plain site.

Some will require one or many of the skills.

Fighting comes into play if another searching PvP group finds you or has fortified the resource location and is ready for an attack.

The only PvE is for the special items - these are robotic and/or automated systems. Perhaps the AI, will first focus fire on heavy weapons soldiers, then concentrate on hackers, then raid leaders, then highest ranking officer. There will be traps and force fields. Ideally, GM/developers should lead this effort.
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Anthony Rand
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:15 am

Hey gang.

Just my thoughts on PvP.

1. Definately build the game from a PvP is mandatory standpoint. Then use that base and restrict PvP for the carebear servers. The reason being is that games that added PvP as an after thought are always horrible because they were developed from a PvE perspective and PvP was a "Hey the fans want this" then seperate the PvP/PvE servers and do not allow char transfers.

2. Safe zones... I can live with a 5%. Tutorial areaa and city centers for opposing factions should be restricted. But only the central gathering point in any city, think of it as a place in the center of the city, one zone out of several that constitute the city as a whole. Say I'm allied with city A and I want to go into city B. I should be able to, probably have to sneak around guards, go through sewers and back alley ways, able to buy things from the traders in the sleazy drug infested backstreats but I should not be able to walk into the city center. NPC guards should prevent that and even if I were able to make it in I shouldn't be allowed to draw a weapon. Starting zones should be something that says if you have over X skill points you can't enter in the code.

3. PvP loot. How about a Karma system. Kill someone of the opposing faction that is way under geared and has way less skillpoints you should take a major karma hit painting you as a prime target. The poor guy you ganked drops 1 random item from inventory of little value like a bandage. Now that you have the bad rep someone comes behind ya and blows your head off. You drop 3 items of med value, possibly weapons, armor etc. If you've ganked a bunch of new players or grief the same person an outrageous number of times.. then hey you lose 5 items starting at the top with the highest value. Obviously there is an insane ammount of variables that need to go into this but it could work and work well. for the people that don't want to lose thier precious uber-mutant-killer pistol... give us a single inventory slot that is exempt. can't spell slaughter without laughter.
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Isaiah Burdeau
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:18 am

To have loot on karma system is very hard to implement and a fvcking weird thing(at last in my view).You cant stop griefing or pk in some unbalanced fights .If you think like that ,why not all people be same lvl ,same gear, and same skill ? Dont we want to grow super strong warriors to be the elite that own others no mater what lvl /skill they are ? Yes we want ,so what you say to have a chace of droping loot becouse your karma cant be implement in a game.You can be a succesfull pvp'er/pk and know your ways to deal your own playng stile.The pk and the carebear need to know their tools of survive and use the best tactic to win.What you say is : The old wulf not to kill the immature (child)bunny .Even in nature you will have rulls but they are fare rulls and what you say ,is like someone to lose 5 of the best items and the other one to lose only 3 of his worse items are a realy shit idea.

PS: if you are a weakling and manage to kill me and i dont have my items saved you will fvcking roar,but if im gona kill you easly becouse you dont notice my moves and you are in a much higer area than your lvl then you are just anohter x on my table.Players need to drop waht items they forget to save ,other than that if they are in dangerous but rich areas they fvcking made it on their own. Image

I am the Formless in all forms.Strenght si the only measure ,all things can be resolved with violence and blood share.
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:50 am

I agree and disagree with Barakus, like that is new, I think Karma is really good in PvE, however in PvP there is no room for it. I will add Karma to the PvE Summary thread once it is created by either Findel24 or I.

I feel that PvP should keep track of how many confirmed kills, assisted kills, and transfers(?) you have had.

That way, guilds can based use the stats to help determine their command and ranking structure.

(?) In PvP instead of spawn points for death, how about a essence transfer system (new technology). The essence transfer systems takes your soul and transfer it to a backup - it can be the same as your current race or different whatever you decide to keep. As long as you have a backup, you can continue in PvP. However if you run out of backups, you must forfeit that toon and either use another character or start over.

The key to staying in the game is to have many clones and many PvP ready alts. There is a cloning facility for lone wolfs or as a backup of last resort, however it is more expensive and you can only have one back-up which is the drawback. So every time you are transferred, you have to purchase a backup right away. However the strength is an impenetrable PvE facility with multiple defenses.

Personal essence transferred units must be purchased.

Just an idea and it maybe too cumbersome to code.

What do you guys feel about the transfer suggestion? It does give a you a further sense of urgency in PvP where you know if you do not have a backup, it is all over for that toon.
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Shelby McDonald
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:25 am

Do you guys feel PvP should be allowed after reaching max level when PvP first starts. And when there are upgrades to expand the ceiling, PvP kills and other things will have an XP number associated with them so we can continue to be in PvP without dropping back down to PvE to gain levels.

Or hey, you can enter it at any time but don't come crying to me if you are not ready - earning xp still applies? For example a first level joins a faction and that faction engages an opposing faction, that first level will receive the xps per kill, mission, or whatever.
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james reed
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:57 pm


Still working on it as well as PvE
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Post » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:20 pm

Pvp shuld be available at every lvl and low players can fight other low players or fight higer players but usually avoid dangerous high players.Now depends ..everyone need to be succesfull and chose in what area they go.Some will aventuring in unknow areas and be hunted like the young cub that is near the hienas clan.U cant stop powerfull ones to hunt the weaker.

PS: In the nature, beasts kill most of the time becouse they need to eat and sometimes in order females to get in period, the cubs are killed but here in games we kill becouse we can and we want it. Image

I am the Formless in all forms.Strenght si the only measure ,all things can be resolved with violence and blood share.
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Kellymarie Heppell
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