Hello, fellow Elder Scrolls enthusiasts. I am sure many of you are excited about combat in upcomming TES:O, as do I. However, i am very worried at once.

I divided my PvP essay into 4 parts:

1st: Cyrodiil mass PvP

Cyrodiil will be huge, open world PvP zone, with cities, mines, ruins, public dungeons, villages, lumber mills..... and insane amount of players, of course. With a populatiry of Elder Scrolls franchise, Cyrodiil and the game in general (you will be able to start with PvPing at level 10) will be flooded with people. This makes me happy as an Elder Scrolls fan, but worried as a PvP fan.

So far as i know, and as the previews says, Cyrodiil will be the place for hundreds vs hundreds PvP. Well, battles with such a huge number of players are enjoyable of course, for a limited amount of time. Hundred vs hundred PvP is basically just zerg versis zerg = bigger amount of people wins. No skill neened, almost no combat focus needed, you just run in, die, run in again, and die again, and so on. Your skill cannot do much with your outcome from a Zerg vs Zerg fight. And thats what makes me bored after some time in this PvP hell.

I am sure many of you played WoW, i played that game too, and this was exactly what i did not like. Alterac Valley turned into Zerg vs Zerg at Field of Strife almost everytime, and it was 30 mins of really boring combat. Arathi Basin was usually (with not so experienced players mainly) about two zergs running around and capping bases. Who tried to survive on his own, failed.

I am feared that Elder Scrolls follows those footsteps of doom. Cyrodiil, place where the PvP of ESO shall flourish, will turn into "I HAZ BIGGER ZERG I WIN HAHA" place. I am kinda counting with it, i counted with it before, but it still makes me sad. But there is soemthing more what makes me worried. Cyrodiil appears to be only place in whole Tamriel, where we will be able to PvP at launch. So the only possible PvP will be ZvZ (understand Zerg vs Zerg). And no.. i definetly do not wish that.

If you like the zerg, i prepared a picture for you that will probably calm you down after reading those lines above. http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/alterac_valley_zerg.jpg

2nd: Cyrodiil minor PvP

Zenimax Online is saying that in Cyrodiil, there will be objectives for smaller PvP groups, like mines to cap, lumber mills to cap, villages to cap, or even dungeons to run.

- Village should be for 10 players
- Mine /Lumber Mill for 5 players
- and so on ..

My question is: Who will go to take over, for example Hackdirt, with 10 players, when he can invite whole zerg? I know the answer. Noone. And possibly nice 10 vs 10 battle at Hackdirt will turn into 150 vs 150 slaughterhouse.
ZvZ is very dark side of free, open world PvP. I dont want to whine here, but thats how i see it.

3rd: Arena

Nevermind, lets move on. Zenimax worried me with another thing about PvP. They did not say a word about Arena yet. And i think Arena is very essential (1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 at least) for majority of PvP community. Arena is the place where the Zerg doesnt count. Arena is the place where skill (and class combo, lawl) matters. And i DEMAND!! Arena to be a part of ESO, if not at launch, then soon after.

4th: Emperor title

And so, we are moving on to another PvP aspect. Emperor title. Emperor title will belong to player with the best PvP stats around. So, to the player who will take part in the biggest amount of Zerg fights, and very probably, to the mage who will be able to stealkill, or just masskill with AoEs. Emperor title is very nice possible reward for a prowess in PvP. Please, Zenimax. Do not make Zergperor from it. Make some other conditions for getting it than just participating in zergs. Or, make another title for PvP prowess (suggestion bellow).


Conclusion

Zenimax devs have it in their own hands. With TES:O combat system they can make the best PvP game of all times. However, there are too many "but" to be complete calm about their work. TES:O is kinda heading towards current most famous zerg games, and its what PvPers wont like, i am sure. In my opinion, this features should be instroduced in the final game to make PvP more enjoyable (pure my opinion):

1.: Create Arena (1vs1 fights included, cuz it belongs into TES:O lore), once per month, the best ranked players from all Alliances can fight for title Grand Champ. of Tamriel (so Emperor will be ZvZ title, and Grand Champ PvP title), or something.
2.: Create instanced Battlegrounds (5vs5, 10vs10), as an alternative for Cyrodiil warfare.
3.: Create another zones, lesser ones, not just Cyrodiil, for lesser PvP warfare (for example Pale Pass, like it was in TES IV: Oblivion).



This thread, however, is not just about mine speech. Say your opinion. What would you like to see in TES:O PvP? Or do you like it in current, very realistic state? What would you add? What would you remove? And mainly: Is this going to be the best PvP MMORPG of all times? As a successor of Dark Age of Camelot, it has very big potential to score right into black.

I am sorry for my inaccurate english.

Wasn't able to read all of your message but most. I most certainly don't want an "Arena" . In that case it should be within factions only. Makes no sense lore-wise to have it cross-faction, these factions are at war; but some entertainment for the citizens is always good.

But I can definitely see your worry. But in my experience of Open World PvP and PvP on massive scale is that yes; there will most certainly be a zerg. But there will also be medium-sized battles and there will most certainly be minor squad battles and there will most certainly be times when you run into a lone enemy. All kinds of combat will most likely exist; on bigger objectives like capturing a fort you'll definitely see a lot of players as that's what you should need to conquer one. But out in the wilderness between different bases is probably where you're gonna run into smaller battles/duels.

I really do hope that you are right. All depends on the true "size" of Cyrodiil, and on the number of players allowed in "Warfare Campaings". I do not like cross faction Arena either, but it would bring nice challenge for PvPers who like it. Arena had big succes, and still has, in World of Warcraft. At least factional Arena matches should be avaiable as soon as possible, with some nice title / perk reward for a Champ.

Not because i love Arena PvP so much. But because at launch, many PvPers will want to try this game. Many of them do not care about lore, or ZvZ. And many of them will see lack of Arena as a huge disadvantage of TES:O compared to the games who has it.

I dont know, if you are aware of great Epic battles - I am.
Some people call this Zerg. But what is Zerg? if one big crowd runs over a small group? I call it "[censored] happens"
As far as I can say, is that "biggest crowd wins" is not right.
I had lots of Situation, where our 20 Man Ally Group was ran over by a 8 Man Group.
It depends on so many things.

In ESO much more - as you dont have fixed classes. You can be what you want to be, with small borders. Let me say - TESO is RPGs America
Therefore the amount of bombs and other AE Styles will be, or could be very small.

You have everywhere the chance, that it drops off to one side.
I suggest, the best would be to leave it like it is (no figure regularities in respect of villages and so on) - no !! instanced Battlegrounds. But gladiator Arenas, or anything.

See WoW. Arenas. This is "business", no fun, game for pros, as per my opinion. No open PVP, or no one plays it, cause the game is different. Also - instanced battleground with no sense for your land.
This is not the way for this game I think.

See DAOC - Fun for me in open RVR Zerg, little groups, or alone. - the guys who wanted to do 1v1, tried to do it in open Zones. Other players came, helped one, or killed both. Makes no sense as well.

Long text, short message - leave it open, but get some alternatives for duel players.
So they wont kill the open pvp picture (hey-what the hell you did? this was an duel), and the duel guys have their gameplay without other players to interrupt.

Even if I hate Arenas and duels and stuff as I wrote in a different thread.
There you see - different Players, different Opinions.

Hard work for ZMO to get all players pleased

"zerg" warfare is what's happening in guild wars 2 and the reason i dislike wvw. hopefully ZOS figures out how to make large scale combat with out all the zerginess. they've mentnioned in interviews that cyrodill with offer more than just the large battles. bottlenecks for example where even a solo stalker type player can have fun while avoiding the large scale fights.

i disagree with the arena comments you made. arena is for e-sport enthusiasts. at least imo. and e-sport has no place in an mmo. if you want e-sport play LoL or Starcraft.

Heh, i love the simile to america. ((:

Of course, for example instanced battlegrounds makes no sense for Faction as a whole. But i think there will be many players who will just play to slay. Not for faction, lore, or anything else. And its in WoW as well. Since Human got the best racial in game, it overpopulated BElfs and every other race.

Gladiator Arenas - Nice idea. Its not important if the PvPers will have their playground in the middle of mountain pass, of in collisseum. Both things should satisfy them (us).

And yes, you are right. In WoW, organized, "Ventriled", geared 5 men group can kick 15 men without those "advantages". But in 100 vs 100 fight, the skill difference is really almost trample into the very ground.

Anyway, thanks for your awesome answer. You are making my worries lesser and lesser with every word. I will just put my trust into Matt Firror′s hands. He did cool job at DaoC.

yes

I disagree with some of what you said. Massive, persistent battlefields don't always create a Zerg - based game. Take the example fo Planetside 2. I play that game, and yes, Zergs are a large determining factor, but there are other tactical elements. In that game, control over surrounding territories affects ability to capture a base. Usually these surrounding territories are small - and so it can be prudent for a small infiltration team to sneak through enemy lines and capture them before the main Zerg. This gives you the small group combat, as well as macro management RTS style gameplay. I also find that in that game, zergs don't automatically win - they have to be calculated and directed. A masive Zerg attacking a heavily fortified base with only a handful of people is doomed to fail, but allowing another faction to fight over the territory then moving in for the spoils in small groups is a lot more effective. I can imagine RTS elements which will eventually facilitate small combat.

Yeah, GW2 is famous for zergs. I know that devs are saying that it will be different in Cyrodiil, and i really do hope for their succes, but.. i just cant imagine how they are going to do that. And that worries me. Stupidity brings fear. (((:

I disagree, however, with that e-sports should play LoL and leave us alone. First, E-sports are subs as well, and the more money game will make - the mone and better updates, expansions we′ll get. Second, as a PvP player, its always nice to have plenty of asses to kick around. (:

I didnt play Planetside 2, so i cant judge. I wrote my message basically based on mine experience from WoW, Age of Conan, SW: ToR, and GW 2, and there, zergs are pain in the ass. And PvP there stands on the numbers mainly, tightly followed by HUGE gear dependency.

Mass PvP with RTS elements would be sweet. You should evolve that idea so we could read about it a bit.

if you havent heard the mmorpg.com podcast interview it's worth a listen. the pvp dev goes into some depth about their plans. this forum wont let me post the link but it should be easy to find on mmorpg.com.

Hmm, well I can tell you now that battles will probably be a bit different than your usual zerg rush. I mean, it will still be large numbers of people throwing themselves against each other, but now with combat that actually needs to be actively thought about. I truly think with a combat system like theirs, pvp will be a very different game. Assuming they allow stealth in pvp, you could get a band of assassins, or players heavily invested in stealth to ky and wait for a horde of the enemy to come take their town for ex., and when the opposing faction is at the capping point, ambush them. Also, you have to remember that the fight for cyrodiil is based on campaigns, with a certain amount of troops, so your main contingent probably can't afford to go steamroll a grp of 10 people at a small town, they're the ones storming citadels, cities, and such. The biggest problem I've always had with MMO pvp is that there's a sense of inevitability that you will die regardless of how you play. Since standard MMO combat comes from dice rolls, there's always the possibility that you just got really unlucky. But in ESO, you have to aim and time your attacks, while keeping an eye on your dwindling resources, so I think that will really influence pvp. I like the idea of an arena immensely for this game, mainly because the combat between 2,4,6 players could get really intense due to the games combat. Assuming the arena is built in the imperial city, they could add it as an activity for the controlling faction. Whoever is emperor could declare a tournament, and offer a prize to whoever wins, or people could take part in regular scuffles.

Yeah, there will very likely be people who get upset if there's no arena but I just think "screw them". A game like this offers an advanced and massive PvP experience that goes beyond just fighting 24/7. If they just want to PvP and be in combat all the time there are some really good games out there that does that, MMORPG's, FPS and Dota-copies like LoL, Hon, Dota 2 and Smite. It's not so much lore as it is "making sense" in any case, imo.

I listened to that, of course, and i enjoyed it. However, the nature of Cyrodiil PvP, from that what i heart, is mainly based on player′s decision. There are no virtual "borders" to player′s action. Nothing that is preventing zergs to do minor PvP objectives. And I, personaly, am more interested in guerrila warfare, or small conflicts, than massive epic battles (i will enjoy them as well, tho).

Virtual borders are bad, of course. So i am trying to find ways around. Arena is one of them, imho.

Arena is very "strong" part of The Elder Scrolls lore. First was built in 1E 490, by Gaiden Shinji, during Siege of Imperial City. And in TES IV: Oblivion times, before the Oblivion crisis, even Kvatch had its own Arena. Vivec in Morrowind has its own Arena as well. So, the Arena is very popular thing to make inhabitants of bigger cities happy, due to Elder Scrolls lore. And even Tamriel Empire chains to Roman Empire approves that.

Arena is nothing against lore, inf act, its a big part of it. This is another reason why i think that it belongs to the game. At least factional Arenas.

i think depending on how the map is set up will make or break it. guild wars 2 maps lack creativity imo. they are rectangular and dont offer much in the way of hiding places. i also think there are too many players allowed per map. it makes the maps feel a lot smaller. im not a huge pvper so the idea that it can be like an open world pvp type setting appeals to me. players will always zerg given the chance, i guess we just have to trust the devs for now and see how it turns out.

I agree with this. We have Matt Firror at our side, and i am sure he wont blow it up.

Even if Cyrodiil will turn out as a sea of zergs, and epic mass battles, with some feature that will allow those who want to do 1 vs 1 (or smaller groups PvP) once a while, it wont matter.

Firstly, this isn't WoW and it shouldn't be your base for comparison. The best PvP to compare ESO to would be DAoC. Secondly, with ZOS' combat system, class adaptability, synergy, and finesse, zergs won't be a problem if players know good tactics. ZOS already confirmed they plan to build Keeps to have various choke points to even out a conflict even if one side has greater numbers. Everyone switching to an AOE template, combining synergy, and unleashing AOE ultimates through synergy could easily dismantle a larger force.

Smaller objectives are being made for single guilds or just a group of friends. They will be less beneficial to the war effort and allow more variety in size of groups and how players want to approach AvA. It's unlikely zergs would ever go to these locations often as holding keeps would be more beneficial and it would be overkill. Cyrodill is being built to accommodate all sorts of different types of PvP, which makes it really compelling if it works.

Arenas won't be in at launch and ZOS has already confirmed this. Only AvA is going to be in the game when ESO launches. Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but Arena requires anything but "skill." It merely brings to light which classes are overpowered and which ones aren't, making it unbalanced and generally unfair. I personally don't care that much for a instanced PvP system to be implemented unless it is done right anyways (look at the Arena in Oblivion as an example).

We have no idea how the leader board and contributions to it will work. If anything, it will be the person who participates in taking the most keeps/farms/etc. to help consolidate power over most of Cyrodiil. Best and worst are subjective phrases and ESO will not represent either. It has the potential to be one of the most compelling and fun PvP systems for an MMO out there, but implementation and execution will mean everything to make this possible. I don't care to see Arenas ever unless they are done properly, similar to Oblivion. If they are just generic and like any other MMO like WoW, SWTOR, GW2, then they can stay out.

I don't care for battlegrounds either for much of the same reason, unless it's done right (and it rarely is). PvP needs to be focused in Cyrodiil and I'd rather not see inferior systems detract from that.

I play Planetside 2 as well - it's releasing in just under a month! - and it is a good example of Zerging not working. It's one of the only real MMOFPS games, so it's a little different but the core MMO is the same. It does have zerging to an extent, but I've seen small squads - 20 players maybe - co-ordinating well and taking down a base with 50 people. It was a pretty awesome sight, even if I was in the base trying to get people to see logic - I had just started, so they didn't listen to a level 3

But yeah, look at Planetside 2 for proof that MMO scale combat doesn't always lead to zerging.

As to the RTS elements, all you would need to do is expand on the idea of "Emperor". You could have a "General" for each side, voted in by the players. The general could then set say, 5 other commanders, and they can all set strategic points to capture for each squad, or for a certain amount of people - e.g. Order 20 people to go to Hackdirt, and the first 20 people there get a reward for arriving, and an award for killing and capturing. Anymore don't, and you can have multiple objectives "tagged" like this at one time. The general whose faction wins becomes emperor

I also play/played PS2, it was one of my examples of where the size of battles vary a lot.


Like i said; arenas within factions is not breaking lore. I'd like it even. But having an Arena between factions like WoW is just stupid; at least in TESO. Unless there's some neutral zone where there's pax I suppose...

Said ′nuff. If it works.

Of course,, i am not reffering to the WoWstyle arenas, but like to something what Oblivion has.

Sorry for comparing this awesome game to that pile of steamin [censored] that WoW is, last several years, but its still the most successful game PvP-wide, and it will be TESO′s thoughest enemy in the fight for PvP players hearts. Without Arena, TESO will be very weakened in that combat. I would like to see the better part of WoW PvPers in this very game, to be honest, because i had some wonderful times in WoW during vanilla and TBC.

I am still prefering normal zones with Cyrodiil-like PvP system, than BGs, of course.

Noone knows how it actualy was with Arena combats during wars in Tamriel, at least i think. But if the battle for Grand Champ (Arena championship between all 3 alliances), it could be taken as Olympics in ancient Greece. Wars temporarily ended, and Olympics happened, no matter from which city competitors arrived. And due to similarities between Tamriel Empire and Roman Empire, it may work. Of course, this is pure specualiton and probably many of you will laugh at my idea. >.> But i am just searching the way around.

BG's is something I'm Strongly against. If they can make Arenas make sense then I'm all for em; taken that they don't draw players away from the great battle that counts; in cyrodiil.

the same argument about "Tactics" was made in guild wars 2 beta. no amount of tactics has stopped the zergs in that game.

Yeah, BGs are like the worst sollution. I think they wil add more Cyrodiil - like zones to TESO, and Bgs wont be needed at all.