That is 100% what I am talking about, right there - though if integrated it could possibly cut back needed patches and the sort for people.


Yea, we certainly need to figure out what is going on with the weight system as precisely as we can, as that clearly needs to be handled (and then probably tweaked further in Gluby's other project for re-balancing).

And I imagine an animation can be added to "Alcohol," at least I don't see why not

This is something I had trouble with when making Morrowind Crafting. The problem isn't the economy, but the assumption that the player is getting meat and hide from the guar. What you're actually getting is meat and hide reagents, which is technically different. Alchemy is the art of distilling the pure essence of items and recombining them in magical ways. When you go to a comberry bush covered with comberries and you only find ONE, that doesn't mean there's only one berry on the bush. That means there's only one that's perfect enough to carry the pure essence of "comberry-ness" to be used with alchemy. The same is true of meat and hide. You're only finding a single patch of skin or pound of flesh that carries the pure essence of the animal in a form suitable for alchemy.

Of course, if you're just looking for berries to bake a pie, you're not really concerned with perfection or "pure essence" or any other alchemical nonsense. The fact that a berry bush which is obviously covered with berries only produces ONE is particularly annoying when you're trying to set up a cooking mod which needs large quantities of food. Did you ever wonder how a person could bake a mixed-berry pie with only three berries? It's because each alchemy-grade berry actually represents a handful or two of food-grade berries. For a while, I actually DID toy around with the idea of creating a new class of food-grade items without any alchemical properties that could be added to all the plants to help with cooking without unbalancing alchemy. But ultimately, I decided it would just get ugly and confusing, and it would conflict with everyone using any sort of herbalism mod.

So since we're really talking about reagent-grade meat and NOT food-grade meat, it doesn't really make sense that a hunter would get more regardless of his skill... unless you want to go the route of creating a new class of food-grade items, which I wouldn't recommend, or just ignore the "alchemy-grade" aspect... but be prepared to listen to a lot of griping from alchemy purists. I changed a few weights on Mournhold reagents to help with making certain projects more manageable (why on earth would a flower weigh a pound? Why does virtually every Mournhold reagent have the same weight?) and some people actually say that's the reason they won't use my mod.

Go figure.

I'm working on a TC, and I've incorporated someof the things you are talking about. For instance, I didn't make an animation for drunkeness, but I wrote a script that basically puts something similar to "float" on the player. You never really lose control of your character, but you find yourself turning in unanticipated directions as you walk or run....

At one point I had a script that added in falling when running and/or jumping, but it was very strange... if you fell while running and jumping, you actually accelerated instead of slowing, I actually had a character slide from the bridge in Seyda Neen, then the full length of the street, and into the water by the Excise Office... and then along the bottom of the sea until striking a rock, where the pc drowned... I wanted to make a snow board mod out of it, but I never figured out why it happened... I lost the original script to a bad hard drive, but I have most of it.

Anyway, I have eating and drinking scripted so that if you want to eat, you set out your food and activate it, getting a choice of eating it or picking it up. this modifies the value of a global variable that determines the effects of hunger. I also have a script that allows you to drink from a jug just as you would drink a potion, and it modifies a "thirsty" variable that determines effects of thirst.

I'm only going into all this to let you know I don't mind sharing, as long as it's a two way street. If you're interested in any of this, let me know. If not, I'll just leave you all to it....

That alone would be an immense improvement.


Personally, if eating can be done manually, I wouldn't use the "preserve raw foods" anymore. As for the bottles/jugs, cheaper fish and the Vvardenfell/Mournhold/Solstheim foods, I never use those and just click blindly. They don't bother me. If they were removed I'd probably not notice it.


I'd welcome this very much.
The Dragon meat irks me a little bit, but I'd live with it if it meant mods such as Tamriel Rebuilt and Abot's Water Life were integrated. The addition of so many cool food items far outweights a few scarce items I personally wouldn't like as much.


I think any real-life items that still fits in a medieval/fantasy setting would be fine. Also, ingredients that have an actual in-game source (like if you added some edible parts to Guars, Alit, Kagouti, Cliffracers, Dreugh, kollops...).

However, my main concern with additions is to see local foods being drowned in much larger amounts of imported ones, which I don't think is realistic. While I love NOM, one of the main issues I have with it is that I already feel there isn't enough local items and recipes compared to foreign ones, which to me takes off little bits of Morrowind's alien feel. I would very much welcome more local items and recipes. Especially if it means they'll be more food to find in the Ashlands and Molag Amur, other then rats.


Might be best as a seperate addon, if possible. But would be a very cool function.


I have to admit that while I'm a hardcoe fan of role-playing, this is too much realism for my taste. While I like the way it has been implemented in some of Princess Stomper's houses (I think it's from Korana's bath mod?) where using sinks or baths give you a temporary boost or have modest restorative properties, I'm not fond of seeing it becoming a necessity. If penalties are added, I too would prefer them to be optional, either with configuration options or seperate ESP. However, if related objects are placed in the world, like chamber pots, baths, lavatories or even public bath houses, I'd much rather have the possibility of just disabling the related scripts so I could keep the new content.

Other

Pwin mentionned something about some recipes being known without the use of a cooking book. I second this for very basic recipes, like grilling meat and chopping fruits.

Would it be possible to put the restaurant on a big foundation block and change the small pond for a water resource, instead of changing the terrain height? The floating grass around the place kinda ruins the otherwise beautiful exterior. At some point, I had started to remove the grass around the area but ended up just deleting every NOM changes to that cell and making another restaurant elsewhere. It just seemed like much less work then deleting the grass above ground.

In regards of Kovacius and Toccatta's discussion about hunting and quantities of ingredients, I think both have very good points. I'm kind of bumped out that the addition of food items that have no alchemical usefullness creates too much conflicts, as it sounded really neat.

You know, I never really had a problem with the ingredient quantities myself. I always kinda figured you weren't picking "one comberry" anyway, you were harvesting "one alchemical/standard unit of comberries", whatever that may be for the specific ingredient - e.g. in the case of comberries, I'd assume it was at least a punnet; for Daedra hearts it would be 1 usable-quality heart; for muck you might get a bucketful, etc. :shrug:

Sorry for the long delay. I knew this would take a chunk of time, so it took me a while to get to it. Stupid quoteboxes limitation: this is part 1 (and yes, I heavily cut down on them).

Re: Estimated Time of Release


Thanks for the contribution!

It's not totally impossible that it will be in release status before the new year. I'd like to have something done, certainly toward the end of this month. Full-on, done, complete 3.0 version, not likely, but workable beta? I dunno, Red Eye, I think it's quite likely well before we start talking about the new year.

Re: Cooking Scripts, MWSE and the Need to Find Cookbooks to Fry Meat



I hear you on those issues, and concur with you and Red Eye on them. I have been thinking of ways of making the cooking process scripts more dynamic.

The cookbooks issue is an area that bothers a lot of people, and, as Kovacius pointed out, having to get to a bookseller in a major town to roast some meat is a bit unobvious. I think we'll definitely have a base of no-skill-required recipes no matter how we end up doing recipes (keeping the NoM system basically intact, or rewriting it using a different methodology).


I'm conceptually totally in favor of doing both the standard-scripting and the MWSE scripting paths of development, but it may be too much work to maintain both in parallel. I'm still on fence on which of those to do, too.

Re: MGE-rendered Grass Problems at NoM's Food of the Gods Location


Actually, it just sounds like maybe NoM was not selected when you chose the list of mods to run the Distant Land generator with?

Re: Integrating an Ingredients Sorter Script, Fliggerty's MWSE Methodology Suggestion, and Displays of Public Drunkenness


Actually, I am seriously considering a sort of integrative Ingredients ESM, possibly as part of this mod, that would basically place a dummy area with all the ingredients so scripted mods, like Ingredient sorters, would no longer ever have to include the stuff. That's something quite needed. Of course, the question would then arise about whether to retain original modders' values and alchemical properties, or to adjust/rebalance them, as some are imbalanced, or uber, or unreasonably valuable or heavy or light and so forth.



Very, very intriguing. I'm still a bit fuzzy on how it works. How would it work from there?

As for standard stat scale, I think, most simplest, we could set it to weight. Gold value is too dependent on other factors, like alchemical usefulness. Of course, we're balancing that against the food-as-potions methodology that uses the length of time the player has the Remove Curse effect on the determinant of nutritional value.

Interestingly, I'm dealing with this issue in a different way in Reign of Fire Revised. The dragons' eating scripts handle it in a pretty simple way :

elseif ( StateMenu == 3 )		set CorprusMeat to ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_01 )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_02 ) )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_03 ) )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_04 ) )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_05 ) )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_06 ) )	set CorprusMeat to ( CorprusMeat + ( GetItemCount, Ingred_6th_corprusmeat_07 ) )	if ( CorprusMeat >= 1 )		set Eaten to -1		set StateMenu to 4		return	endif	if ( GetItemCount, ingred_ghoul_heart_01 >= 1 )		set Eaten to -1		set StateMenu to 4		return	endif	set Eaten to ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_rat_meat_01 ) * 0.3 )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, food_kwama_egg_01 ) * 0.3 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( GetItemCount, food_kwama_egg_02 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_crab_meat_01 ) * 0.5 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_daedra_skin_01 ) * 0.2 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_daedras_heart_01 ) * 2 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_durzog_meat_01 ) * 2 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( GetItemCount, ingred_hound_meat_01 ) )	set Eaten to ( Eaten + ( ( GetItemCount, ingred_human_meat_01 ) * 3 ) )	set StateMenu to 4 elseif ( StateMenu == 4 )	RemoveItem, ingred_rat_meat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, food_kwama_egg_01, 1000	RemoveItem, food_kwama_egg_02, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_crab_meat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_daedra_skin_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_daedras_heart_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_durzog_meat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_hound_meat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_human_meat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_01, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_02, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_03, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_04, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_05, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_06, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_6th_corprusmeat_07, 1000	RemoveItem, ingred_ghoul_heart_01, 1000	set CorprusMeat to 0	set StateMenu to 5elseif ( StateMenu == 5 )	if ( Eaten == 0 )		set StateMenu to 0		return	endif	Playgroup, Idle7, 1	set StateMenu to 6elseif ( StateMenu == 6 )	set FrameCounter to ( FrameCounter + 1 )	if ( FrameCounter < 600 )		return	endif	PlayGroup, Idle, 0	set FrameCounter to 0	if ( Eaten > 0 )		set StateMenu to 7	elseif ( Eaten < 0 )		set StateMenu to 8	endifelseif ( StateMenu == 7 )	if ( Eaten < 2 )		MessageBox, "Your dragon nuzzles you and grunts quietly. It is still hungry."	elseif ( Eaten < 3 )		MessageBox, "Your dragon seems somewhat satisfied but still looks at you expectantly. It wants more."	elseif ( Eaten >= 3 )		set DragonDisposition to ( DragonDisposition + 5 )		MessageBox, "Your dragon is full."		set HungrySystem to 1		set LastDayEat to DaysPassed	endif	set StateMenu to 0elseif ( StateMenu == 8 )	AddSpell, raz_indigestion	set StateMenu to 9	MessageBox, "You have fed your dragon rancid or diseased meat. It is ill"

Sorry, no sound effects for dragon indigestion...


On Edit 1: Ooh, excellent! It sounds like it would be a great thing to be able to use in a standardized way.

On Edit 2: I had thought of the meters, but the visual effects... fascinating. Although I can't seem to get away with using shaders on my box here... it slows to 10 FPS or less... how would such a thing impact FPS?

And part 2.


Re: Help with Scripting and Resources


And it will be much, much appreciated.

Re: Lavatories Mod Integration/Inclusion


I'm still totally open to it, but I also still kinda come down on the side of same archive, separate ESP. On a related note, if you think about it, if we're successful here, we may cut down on a good number of necessary ESPs. (The most obvious example coming to my mind right now being an ESM containing a community ingredients package, with all those tasty gems, ingredients, and so forth.)

Re: Integration of an Herbalism Mods



There is still no clear standard in Herbalism mods -- GH, for example, is ingenious, but I got very attached to Advanced Herbalism (which has an Herbalism skill and seed-bearing plants, and is very well-done overall), and did not want to abandon that aspect. If there was pretty strong consensus here on it, I'd be in favor of integrated (and updated) Herbalism if we could get both the advanced functionality of AH along with the visuals of GH in there. Otherwise, we might be forcing what was before a rather subjective choice. But then again, if one could just use another Herbalism mod on top of it that overwrites the plant scripts if one prefers with no problem, what's the big deal?

What does everyone think about integrated Herbalism, and what should be integrated into it?

Real Wildlife and Creature Mods: I personally think we should stay away from mixing this in as well. Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to a modest, strictly puristic wildlife expansion if it was virtually indistinguishable from Bethesda's base style and quality, but RW had a few shortcomings and points of noticeable departure that were, I must confess, a bit of a turnoff for me. (The aforementioned scripted, non-stacking bird turds all over the place, for example, or the save the cliffracers thingy. It's very clever, but it all just didn't mesh well to me.)

For other creature integration, I'm sort of seeing PirateLord as holding the reins of the standard there, and I'd much prefer either an integrative solution with him, or letting him handle it in Creatures XI.

Leveled Lists and Creature Ingredient Loot: That was actually http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7819. I see it as a worthwhile thing to include something along those lines in NoM, but I'd definitely want to make sure others did too, and that it wouldn't end up causing problems or incompatibilities.

I don't know if it would be too wise to make animals auto-gather like plants and Abot's fish, for two reasons. First, I know I don't always want to delete the corpse right away -- for example, if I plan on going through the same area repeatedly and don't want to deal with a respawn every time (using 4 or 5 major creature mods means loots of creatures). Second, I know I wouldn't want to give up retrievability of arrows. (Too bad MW doesn't have a simple TakeAllFromContainer script command. Or does it?) Third, this might mess with compatibility with other mods that affect those creatures' leveled lists put scripts on those creatures. [EDIT: Why the hell did I say leveled lists? Misspoke.]

As far as I can tell, it seems an easier and simpler solution to simply modify the leveled lists, than to script in automatic ingredient recovery.

Re: Food as Potions Methodology -- Praise Toccatta! Ommm....


All credit goes to Toccatta and Drac for that one. I had no idea of it until I found out they did it that way in MC. Props, Toccatta!

Re: Integration of, or Cooperation Between, MC, Water Life, and Other Possible Mods into NoM


As Red Eye said, it's definitely the sort of thing we're aiming for. At minimum, it's definitely not unthinkable to use NoM as a bridge between those mods, and to simply integrate it and some or all of MC together.

As for hunting skill making for more creature loot... Hmm. Interesting idea, but, yeah, sounds a bit overcomplex -- I wouldn't want to require the scripting of all animals, especially since animal scripting is often used for other functions. Something to keep in mind though.

Re: Standardized Weights and Measures


I've thought a lot about that subject, and that seems as a good a standard as any. I remember very, very vividly, from when I was in the military, what 'humping' with a 60-lb pack on my back felt like. 250 weight units as a weight limit for a man of average strength seems about right.

Re: Alchemy Concept versus Practical Use Concept for Ingredients


I've thought about this quite a bit too. That perspective is definitely a very reasonable way to look at it. But we could logically adapt this perspective: what you get from the bush really is a handful of berries. You eat them like normal. But from all those berries, what you get for purposes of an actual potion is a enough for only one. Same with meat (although, again, I'm pretty strongly in favor of making almost all food-type ingredients alchemically worthless or low-value, in order to maintain the alchemy balance of the game). So, you might carry 3 pounds of animal skin, and if you use it for mundane purposes, you get 3 pounds of use out of it. But if you use it for alchemical, you either reduce it down somehow or you can only use that little patch behind the ear (or whatever).

This way, we have a method that is both consistent with practical use and with the alchemical essence model of magical alchemy.

We simply can't come up with too realistic animal part harvesting without totally destroying the game balance (for example, a bear has a lot of meat, not just, say, 5 or 10 meals worth for one person, even if you take into account spoilage). But neither is it necessary nor conducive to immersiveness and alchemical consistency to get one little patch of skin or two pieces of meat from an 800-pound / 360-some-kilo creature. I found a good balance in, say, 5-8 pieces of meat and hide from a similarly-sized creature.


Re: Alternate Eating, Drinking, Drunkenness and Snowboarding (!) Scripts


I don't so much know about snowboarding, but I'd love to see the scripts you came up with. And yes, this is a collaborative, open project, and all this (along with any of my work elsewhere) is on a share-and-share-alike basis (as far as it is my work -- obviously, where I incorporate others' work, their permissions policies remain in effect). So any work we perform here, and it is hoped any work that is submitted, is in the 'cathedral' spirit of things.

Part 3??

Re: Menu Config Choices (Preserve Raw Foods, Cheaper/Heavier Fish, etc.)


That's how Red Eye and I imagined everyone would respond on it, though there are some who still find it of benefit. As it stands, it is likely to only affect cooking scripts, but... perhaps we could completely obviate it by using containers for cooking (put everything in the container you want it to use, in whatever quantities, and the ingredients disappear, to be replaced with whatever quantity of prepared food you made).

Re: Dragon and Mouse Meat


Hmm...

You know, I had just sort of included Dragon Meat and Mouse Meat from MWA as an assumption, sort of a completist thing. But the opinions I've heard on them range from meh to bleh. Does anyone think we should include those in same way as everything else, or should they be included only in a neutral state for MWA users (in other words, not actively integrated in the game world or leveled lists).

Re: Local versus Imported Foods Imbalance


I think this is an excellent point. I hadn't fingered it yet, but I was somewhat discontent with the prevalence of thematically-inconsistent or anachronistic foods. I think we'll definitely want to move away from this, and focus more on lore-consistent and exotic take on things.

In my little collection of recipes that I had made for PirateLord's Creatures ingredients, I had things like Boiled Lemon Parastylus (but, now that I think of it, lemon?), Boiled Kriin Sausage (I toyed with the name Boiled Kriin Kielbasa ), Netch Jelly Pudding, Green Kagouti Curry and some sort of stir fry.

But yes, definitely, mostly Vvardenfell foods, Vvardenfell solutions, Vvardenfell flavors, admixed with the cultural infusion of imported foods here and there.

Re: Food of the Gods Revisited, and Ingredient Alchemy


Honestly, I am much in favor of toning down the Food of the Gods restaurant and making it more consistent with the atmosphere of the game. That sort of establishment sort of assumes a certain population density not at all in evidence in the game.

Those are good ideas -- if you have an ESP with some of your suggested changes, even in rough form just to give a general idea, I'd be very interested in seeing and possibly implementing it somehow.

As for ingredients, I should say that I don't envision totally flattening things -- it should add a bit of variety and excitement. But toning it down enough to keep it from cheapening alchemy altogether, particularly with things that come easier, like meat.

:shocking:

Wow, Gluby, that is quite the posting spree you had there (but you did pretty well address everything since your last post, kudos ).

Anyways, keeping things flowing:

Estimated Time of Release: Sorry, didn't explain my response very well. It is indeed very conceivable that we will have some form of BETA ready to go still this year, but I don't want to put any hope for a 2009 final release while things are still conceptualizing here in the forums. Depending upon when this switches over to some dedicated ESP/M development work, well - we shall just see

Ingredient ESM: I am intrigued, please do explain more on what you are envisioning with this idea

Lavatories/Bathing: Indeed, I figured as much that you would be, but I am seeing some call to both sides, which makes me curious as to overall community consensus on such a matter. Myself, I am open to all options in regards to this aspect (including scraping them entirely).

Herbalism Integration: You're point here is correct, and as I poorly eluded to, I believe this should only be done if the best of all worlds can be included in the final package, thereby making the choice in effect obvious which to use (unless you simply do not wish to use NoM itself). Again, this barring community and author consensus for such a thing to be integrated.

Wildlife/Creature Mods: I think my point with this is being missed, I am not suggesting full integrations, but more integrations of logical things that could add to the flavor (varied ages of wildlife which makes a nice compliment to Emma's Children Mod, or even nesting sites if done more logically, and possibly incorporated into the graphical herbalism aspect if that too is added). New creatures in general, and that sort of thing, should be left to mods like PirateLord's to truly expand upon the content (my suggestion is to add a level of realism to the current content).

Creature Harvesting: I had not thought about the scripting aspects here when I mentioned it, and I think you are 100% right here. You also bring up some other points I had not thought of, so this would probably be best to be left alone and discarded.

Alchemy vs Practical Use: The idea Tocatta mentioned, though I could see as to how it could cause confusion if not done just right, of adding some Misc items to creatures to handle food, and thus taking most of food from the realm of alchemy and making a distinction between the two aspects. Would this not just require a little leveled list tweaking possibly? I am still somewhat fresh in leveled lists myself, as my modding has taken me to different avenues so far. What could some other pitfalls be here?

Restaurants/Food of the Gods: I never fully liked this myself, it always seemed a little jarring to me, but perhaps relocation and different implementation could make it a little better. I know the landscape adjustments there do certainly make some issues from time to time with other mods, as I have had to TS this a few times myself.

Not sure if I am missing any points I wanted to hit, you really had a string there Gluby, but that covers it for this post from me

The difficulty isn't so much associated with creatures as it is with plants. Many herbalism mods work by script, giving a particular reagent to the player upon successful harvesting based upon some herbalism skill value. Since the script places the item in the player's inventory without actually opening the plant as a container, changing the leveled list and modifying the contents of the plant would have absolutely no effect. I'm assuming that most herbalism mods don't actually modify creatures (although that IS an assumption, and may be completely wrong), so changing creatures wouldn't have the same risk of conflict.

On the other hand, from the perspective of alchemy-grade vs food-grade, it's obvious why a food-grade item wouldn't work for alchemy (the whole point of making food-grade items is to protect alchemy from becoming unbalanced), but there's no logical reason why an alchemy grade item shouldn't work for food. i.e. just because a comberry is alchemically "perfect" doesn't mean it won't be just as tasty in that pie you're planning on baking.

If one DOES allow alchemy grade items to be used for cooking, it would drastically increase the complexity of the scripts needed, since every component would have two possible sources. Something with only three ingredients, for example, would have 8 possible permutations that would need to be checked, while a complex meal requiring 5 ingredients would have 32 permutations! I wouldn't want to be the person writing that script.

That's what I meant when I said having separate food-grade items could get ugly. It sounds good in theory, but when it comes down to coding all the various possibilities, it turns rather nasty. That is, ultimately, why I went with the alchemy/practical ratio idea... such that one alchemically perfect comberry is the equivalent of a pound or two of merely edible ones, then I wrote the recipes accordingly. It makes the scripts much easier to write, but it has the side effect of making it much more difficult to increase the food production of plants and animals without unbalancing alchemy.

Okay, I know this is kind of a mickey mouse little script, remember, it is far short of the finished version which was lost. This was a beta version.

I had it started by another script when sufficient drink had been ingested in too short a time. By the way, my objection to the NOM drunkeness was that just going blind and falling down seemed a bit boring, and the fact that luck was not restored to it's proper place after sobering up.

To test it, just place in your scripts and in-game using the console, enter "startscript drunksailorscript"... to see the sliding effect, go to a place with lots of room, start the script, then while running hit jump three or four times. It's really quite a bit of fun... if you don't slide into the water. If you go into the water, you do not float.

Begin DrunkSailorScriptShort Jmmpshort Rnnnshort flopshort whoopsishort ouchshort oopsfloat	  timerfloat   floptimerfloat	swingTimefloat	swingSpeedfloat	startAngle;set startAngle to GetStartingAngle, xif ( MenuMode == 0 )	set swingTime to 1;set swingSpeed to 30	set timer to ( timer + GetSecondsPassed );rotate up	if ( timer < swingTime )		Player->Rotate z, 3;rotate down	elseif ( timer < (swingTime * 3) )			Rotate x, -4;up again	elseif (timer < (swingTime * 4 ) )		Player->Rotate z, 2;reset timer to zero	else		set timer to 0		SetAtStart	endifendif;'if a drunk player tries to jumpIf ( Jmmp <= 1 )	If ( GetPCJumping == 1 )		Set Jmmp to 1	EndIfEndIf;'or runIf ( Rnnn <= 1 )	If ( GetPCRunning == 1 )		Set Rnnn to 1	EndIfEndIf;'set him up for a fallIf ( Jmmp == 1 )	Set flop to 1	Set jmmp to 2EndIfIf ( Rnnn == 1 )	Set flop to 1	set Rnnn to 2EndIfIf ( flop == 1 )			set floptimer to ( floptimer + GetSecondsPassed )		If ( floptimer > 2 )			;prevent jumping until after PC gets up				DisablePlayerJumping									;'give him a skinned knee				set ouch to -1				set oops to ( player->GetFatigue )				set whoopsi to ( player->GetFatigue ) + 30				set whoopsi to ( whoopsi * -1 )				player->ModCurrentFatigue whoopsi				player->ModCurrentHealth ouch				messagebox "Whoopsiii! Faw downgo BOOM!"				set ouch to 0				set flop to 2						EndIfEndIf			If ( flop == 2 )	set floptimer to ( floptimer + GetSecondsPassed)			If ( floptimer > 10 )					player->ModCurrentFatigue oops				If ( floptimer > 20 )							EnablePlayerJumping							set floptimer to 0							set jmmp to 0							set Rnnn to 0							set flop to 0																			EndIf				EndIf			EndIf		EndIfEndif	end

Have fun with it, you're free to use it in any way you wish...

I needed to install my windows for the first time in 3 years and this time I was a bit more open minded about mods and gave NOM a go. It adds an tremendous atmosphere. Always something is going on and it forces you to do something about it.

I noticed two things,
the wells changing the land in a bad way in some places... (as mentioned above)
the lack of visual indicators. The small penalties got bigger and bigger until at some point I died.

I don't think shaders will cut the need for visual indicators. I think it should be done with animations, lot's of animations. Maybe with enough energy in here, we can overcome the animation limitations... Shaders are not enough for alcohol effects for example. It would be cool to see third person staggering animations in the MCA for my PC character. And more stuff for hunger, thirst...

For bathing I see two things
sea(works well as in LOST),
public bath houses: Turkish Bath. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath
Ottoman culture fits Morrowind quite well.

For cooking, sometimes in real life you can't find enough ingredients to make one meal. And you improvise... Checking scripts can go only for 4-5 ingredients(lowering permutations) and only if you have all ingredients for the meal(after you cooked it) then it can be named fully(predefined list) or it will be named mealish or you can gave it a new name if the stats turn good.

Some silly thoughts from me.

One problem I've been having with my TC is that some races have huge amounts of magicka... so if they use it all, when they rest until healed, they get their magicka back, and die of thirst hunger immediately. I know I can solve this, and I'm not too concerned about it, but it's just an indicator of how things can have unintended consequences.

That's also a complaint I had about NOM was the fact that if you slept an inordinate amount of time, you could wake up and be killed by a rat (not mention an assassin) before the script processed enough to enable your abilities again. I loved NOM, but there are some issues....

So, essentially, the only way this could work well would be to patch every last one of those herbalism mods, or integrate an herbalism mod (or multiple ones for collective effects) into NoM so that NoM handled those scripts and provided the correct items. In the event of integration of Herbalism mods, patches would still probably need to be made for various Herbalism Mods so as to allow the player to still use one of those in favor of NoM's version, and thus need the patch to get the appropriate output of items.


So, this would be a second pitfall in and of itself, really. It is plausible, but would constitute a lot on the scripting side of things (as you are correct in the grounds that just because something is alchemically appealing doesn't mean it wouldn't also be appealing as a food). Perhaps, though, if this were merged with something I believe Gluby had mentioned earlier, it could possibly be less work. If it was just presumed from the very get go that Alchemical components would only be used as last ditch efforts to survive, we could simply acknowledge that they would be excluded from the cooking lists, and things that could work for raw consumption would be placed into the proper lists for that (which were going to be designed to conserve alchemically valuable items anyways I believe).

This would seem more feasible to me, if this approach was to be something that is desired by folks.

EDIT: I also wanted to quick toss in some descriptive input that apply to aspects of this mod, so as to be taken into account when developing the various penalties that can be applied to the character from lack of eating/drinking.

It was my understanding that raw ingredients were to be saved for emergency use, not because they were ingredients, but because they were raw. As in: nobody's going to eat raw rat meat unless they're really really hungry. That doesn't really apply to any cooking process, though. One actually expects people to use raw ingredients in preparing food, so the same logic doesn't apply to cooking as it does to eating.

Also, while I'm happy to help with the project in an effort to try to make Morrowind Crafting and Necessities of Morrowind even more compatible, I'm not particularly interested in making them LESS compatible. There may be ways to work around the complexity by simply having NoM disregard alchemy reagents when cooking, but MC isn't designed to do that. Having NoM cooking use only food-grade reagents for cooking while MC uses only alchemy-grade reagents would make the two cooking processes even more inconsistent than they already are. I'd prefer to avoid that if possible.

The idea of "food-grade" reagents was one I had considered and discarded when making MC. For reasons I already explained, I considered it a BAD idea. I wasn't suggesting that it was a good one we should try to incorporate into NoM. In fact, the only reason I brought it up was to illustrate a point about the differences between alchemy and cooking. Any idea that requires patching every possible herbalism mod to get NoM to work correctly is probably not a good one. Likewise, including an herbalism component in NoM also seems a bad idea. NoM is supposed to be about necessities. I don't see where merging an herbalism mod into it makes sense. And quite frankly, the idea of adding in "bathing" is almost as inappropriate. Eating, drinking, and sleeping are "necessities". If you don't do them, you'll die. If you don't bathe, you'll smell bad (although you won't smell any worse than any of the other people on Vvardenfell that ALSO don't seem to bathe - or poop or pee, for that matter). Those belong in a mod called "Niceties of Morrowind" not "Necessities of Morrowind", and anyone that wants THAT much realism needs to just stop playing Morrowind, turn off their computer, go outside, and enjoy all the realism the world has to offer.

But even though I think the suggestion to add bathing/restroom requirements are a bit over-the-top (and just a touch offensive), at least they do fit into the same general idea as NoM... something which cannot honestly be said of an herbalism add-in.

:deal: Yeah, I went pretty crazy.


Gotcha on the points ellipsed at the top of the quote.

NoM Master Data ESM: The ingredient ESM (which could very well just be the main NoM data ESM, sort of how TR splits their up) would contain a fairly inclusive and standardized compilation of all release-quality ingredients out there from many mods, along with a NOM_Ref_Room interior cell where they are stored. This could include gems, crafting ingredients, many things indeed, all of them balanced according to NoM's basic standards. It could also contain basic NoM scripts and any other important things that tend to be referenced by NoM-compatible mods. Now, Ascadian Rose Cottage, instead of even bothering to have to worry about the tisane script, or having to include, say, INGR definitions for oranges and apple, can simply be dependent upon the NOM_Master_Data.esm.

On the other end, it would not require or even enable the actual NoM scripting functions (and I'm wondering whether it would need to include the world changes -- food shops and so forth). Thus, it could be a foundation resource without requiring someone to actually use NoM. Of course, as always, it would require permissions, but most permissions for this kind of stuff is already granted out there.

The more I think about this, the more I like it. It's sort of the kind of thing I have been wanting for my own game for a long time.

Wildlife Creature Mods: I may be under a mistaken impression (forgive me if I am). I haven't assumed you mean a wholesale integration. I have been under the impression you intend a selective incorporation of the best elements, though I communicated that poorly, what with talking about my disenchantment with its clearly worst elements. (Sorry about that.)

I am wary of the variant creatures, given that I am generally wary of including any elements that seem to be fairly definitely outside the mod's scope, and that are fairly definitely inside the scope of other projects (for compatibility and future integrative reasons, mainly -- for example, what if a new and generally-appealing creature includes those young and variant creatures in a different way -- now take them out of NoM or make the mods compete or require patching?). And the nesting sites I did not like so much (mostly, I must admit, because the meshes and eggs were, as I recall, fairly rudimentary in mesh/tex design) -- but even so, it still does seem kinda the sphere of dedicated creature mods. :shrug: It won't likely conflict with other creature mods, but it will likely clash, and so, while I am not dead-set, my basic take on creature mods is that there is already a bit of clash between different major creature mods that needs to be systematically dealt with at their own level. To do so in NoM merely creates yet another entrant into the field and makes for more complications in that sphere, or that is how it strikes me, anyway. I could just be being a bit too conservative on it, though, I must confess. If you want to show specifics, I'll look at it with an open mind. :read:
Alchemy/Practical Use -- Food as Misc Items vs. Food as Ingredients: I'm no expert on leveled lists, though I've done a bit of reading on it (and that one little minor mod), and so, as far as I know, such things could easily be added to creature leveled lists.

I don't think it's such a good idea to create food-grade misc. item variants of existing ingredients, though. It makes for a whole bunch of additional items; incompatibilities or clashes (for example, with the slew of new food-type Ingredients in TR); the spreading of food into three categories (Ingredient, Potions and now Misc. Items) instead of the two (in NoM food resides only in Ingredient), thus making for a messier inventory screen; and the horrible scripting complexity Toccatta mentions below. Plus, as he also pointed out, there is no need to assume alchemical-grade Ingredients can't serve for food. And lore says many of them do, which means we would be conceptually committed to making two kinds of comberry, two kinds of scrib jelly, and so forth, creating what sounds like it will be a lot of scripting bloat.

While a bit of additional complexity can often yield a great deal of additional enjoyment, here I don't think the payoff would be so much worth it. We can avoid cheapening alchemy by leaving most food-type items with only one alchemical use -- poison or damage health or something. Though I'm also keeping in mind potions-as-weapons mods, and want to avoid making it so poisons themselves are cheapened. It would best be accomplished by the use of a totally worthless effect one way or another -- no real harm, no real benefit. Perhaps just Remove Curse (which will be "Food" or "Satisfy Hunger" or something under this mod -- Toccatta's and Drac's MC method) -- but then we have to worry about Food Potions, but we can probably take care of that possibility as well. (Even then, hey, in Rogue and ADOM and similar games there are food potions.)


On the first part (creature scripts) -- having canvassed most, if not all, herbalism mods fairly thoroughly, I think that's correct. The risk, though, would be realized, for example, with Creatures, which places stat- and size-randomizing scripts on most creatures and wildlife (which also sort of occupies the field of creature variation, as well). Place a script on an Alit, and you've just either overridden or had your script overridden by the plx_stat_randomiser script. So, basically, it's safe to say that the creature mods own the creature scripts.

On the MC scripts -- you know, I really need to take a close look at your scripts to see how you went about it. I thought I'd just 'pop' this little revision of Reign of Fire out 'real quick' since I had already done a bit of work on it, and it's svcked up my time trying to get it releasable. NOW I see what a PitA it is to get fairly complex mods out for release... whew.



Thanks! I'll check it out. And, yeah, the drunkenness methodology is a little mild. Between the ideas floating around here, including Fliggerty's methods, we've got some fun ways of working with this.


Re: Bad Land Changes: If you see those things, can you post BCs of them here? (Beta Comments)

You probably already know, but just in case and for everyone else who sees this and is not aware, Beta Comments, which have to be enabled in the INI, allow you to have the game store very precisely identified notes on problematic objects of any sort -- just open console, click on the item in question, and type:
bc "this item has X problem"

A bit more precise than a screenshot. Just make sure you have changed the "Beta Comment File=" line in your Morrowind.INI file to "Beta Comment File=BetaComment.txt" (or any filename you like).

Re: Lack of Visual Indicators: Really? It gives you lots of messages, and it shouldn't happen that you starve to death or die of thirst unexpectedly. While there is no obvious visual indicator (apart from the red icon showing you have some sort of stat drain affecting you), there is a lot of textual feedback.

Animations sound very ambitious, and way beyond the scope of what I could do. I am not sure how such a thing could be implemented without fairly sweeping changes (again, though, I am fairly new to many things involved), but if someone feels like they can do it and wants to propose it, please do.


Turkish Bath Houses: Actually, that really is appealing. I kind of cringe at outhouses and medieval European style stuff in Morrowind, but that really seems to fit well thematically. Morrowind is a sort of anologue to the Middle-east.

Fault-Tolerant Cooking Scripts: Not a bad idea conceptually. But it sounds like we'd need to use the game coding used for alchemy, which wouldn't work, and scripting can't, as far as I know, be used to make new items. So, likely, it would require the creation of at least two versions of every meal, which is something of an enlargement. A good idea to keep in mind if we find it feasible -- the scripts can certainly be written to be a little fault-tolerant of one missing ingredient.


Dying of Thirst While Resting Until Healed with Huge Magicka Reserves: Hmm. The NoM-based solution would be to turn off the accumulation of hunger and thirst when sleeping, although it might just be more appropriate to use a Magicka regeneration mod for uber Magicka races.

Dying When Waking Up from Extended Sleep Because Scripts Don't Complete Before a Creature Kills You: I never had that happen to me, but perhaps we could easily solve it by making that processing occur in a while loop rather than standard conditionals. If you sleep for that long, you just have to deal with a two-or-three-second pause, but it would solve that problem.

EDIT: Gluby posted while I was making this, his points covered most of my opinions, most of post removed.

For me, that really closes the debate on those aspects (unless anyone else has anything to say in favor of them being in, but I am inclined to agree on all counts that these aspects should be discarded). I think something left to consider would be precisely defining hunger/thirst/exhaustion levels and corresponding penalties that they would inflict. The descriptions I tacked on to the previous post before should hopefully sever well for this aspect of things.

Structure of Hunger, Thirst and Tiredness States


I did a lot of that research when I rewrote the messages for NoM. Pretty disturbing stuff, actually.

Actually, I have a sort of rough structure I came up with posted at the TES Alliance thread I linked somewhere in that jumble of posts above (the thread where I am inviting voice actors to contribute new sound files to the project). I'll reproduce it here later but it involves 9 hunger states (3 of them being a neutral non-state, satiated and bloated), 4 or 5 states of thirst, and 4 or 5 states of tiredness. Is that along the same lines of what you've come up with? Let me know what you think.

Discussion on Food-Grade versus Alchemical-Grade Ingredients


Yes, that was the tentative conclusion we came up with.


Understandable.


Put that way, I concur -- herbalism is severable and distinct, and not within the scope of this mod. Although... I have thought several times of updating Advanced Herbalism (a few fixes and TR compatibility)... but I'm not going to embark on any new projets until these basic infrastructural big ones are done.

While I personally wouldn't say that bathing/lavatory requirements are offensive in se, it is certainly true that this is an area most people fail to handle maturely. To be sure, Red Eye is talking mature handling here, but, yes, overall, while I hadn't thought of the word, it is a distinct and severable area of game functionality.

In case you find anything useful in my stuff here, I'll explain it a bit.

First, I never liked the idea that NOM just randomly chose items from my inventory and did away with them, gave me a chew or gulp sound and claimed the PC had eaten them. It also isn't very conducive to role-playing.

My solution was to attach scripts to food items that allow you to put a piece of meat, some spinach or other veggie and a loaf of bread on a plate if you want to. You then activate each item on your menu according to your desire, and your hunger level is reduced appropriately... If you drink milk (which you can buy or get by milking a goat or cow) you get both food and drink credit.

My foods have little or no alchemical value... Alchemy is a fine thing, but most alchemical ingredients in real life are gathered, stored, and processed in a manner entirely different from food. Just my take on it is all.

I have three scripts for three varieties of food; one for friuts and snacks which give limited benefit, a more substantial food, and a full meal. Hunger, thirst, and sleepiness accrue at 1 point each per hour, so after 8 hours of wakefulness, a full meal will basically set hunger back to 0.

One 8oz drink of water sets your thirst to 0 regardless of where it was.



My time scale is set to 22, the idea is to prevent the PC from having to spend all of their time eating and drinking and no time playing.

Foods can also be gathered by dumpster diving, but this has a consequence... you can also get food poisoning. Here's the script for that:

Begin EatBadScriptshort ateItshort buttonshort ctrlshort OnPCdrop;globals: HungryIf ( MenuMode == 1 )	ReturnendIfif ( OnActivate == 1 )	If ( Ctrl == 0 )		MessageBox "This food doesn't look very good, what would you like to do?", "Eat it?", "Or just pick it up?"		set ctrl to 1	endIfendIfIf ( ctrl == 1 )		set button to GetButtonPressed	If ( button == -1 )			Return	elseIf ( button == 0 )			set ateIt to 1	else		Activate	set ctrl to 0	endIfendIfIf ( ateIt == 1 )		Playsound "Eating"	If ( hungry >= 2 )			set hungry to ( hungry - 2 )	Else			set hungry to 0	endIf		Player->addspell "1HD_Dis_FoodPsnng"		set ateIt to 0		set ctrl to 0		Disable		stopscript "EatBadScript"endIfEnd EatBadScript

Here is one of the codes for eating:

Begin EatFullmealScriptshort ateItshort buttonshort ctrlshort OnPCdrop;globals: HungryIf ( MenuMode == 1 )	ReturnendIfif ( OnActivate == 1 )	If ( Ctrl == 0 )		MessageBox "What would you like to do?","Eat me?", "Just pick me up?", "Nothing"		set ctrl to 1	endIfendIfIf ( ctrl == 1 )		set button to GetButtonPressed	If ( button == -1 )			Return	elseIf ( button == 0 )			set ateIt to 1	elseIf ( button == 1 )		Activate		set ctrl to 0	else		set ctrl to 0		Return	endIfendIfIf ( ateIt == 1 )		Playsound "Eating"	iF ( HUNGRY >= 1 )			set hungry to 0			MessageBox "You are no longer hungry"	Else			MessageBox "You are no longer hungry" 	endIf		set ateIt to 0		set ctrl to 0		Disable		stopscript "EatFullmealScript"endIfend EatFullmealScript

A separate global script provides consequences of hunger, thirst, and sleep loss, and restores abilities when these issues are resolved, as well as stopping the script when the PC goes to jail.

If there's anything you like about these, feel free....

Re: Herbalism mods
I've been messing with some MWSE functions for awhile. ;P I think I may have to mess around with an MWSE herbalism idea now. One that just checks the contents of the plant rather than assuming.

Re: visual and textual feedback
I'd really love to see, in an MGE version, an option for hunger and thirst bars. If not, it could still be done as something separate by someone else of course. The textual feedback is great and all, but if we were to go with a point based system for hunger, thirst, and sleep I think it'd go great with some HUD bars, with textual feedback at certain points.

Re: Config Menu
This hasn't been talked about too much in the thread. But I was thinking on it for awhile. I know already that the startup menu in NoM asks if you want to customize or go with defaults. But perhaps you should have a standard setup menu and an advanced setup menu option as well.

Standard would ask questions on some of the more obvious things like hunger, thirst, sleep scripts and basically what NoM already has for configuration. While advanced might go the whole 9 yards with some of the new things we might be adding, using more of a categorized menu styled setup than a step-by-step questionnaire.

This would keep the config menu to a decent size/length, but still allow the same amount of customization.

Just wanted to toss this out there. Its 6am here and I've kinda forgotten everything I read in the thread already. So I don't remember how many 'new features' are being considered right now.

I don't how the bars would be made, but my system is of course point based. I currently have a key that is placed in the PCs inventory, and equipping it gives hunger, thirst, sleep, and just for the heck of it, the time of day. It's a bit of a hassle to open inventory and drop the key on the picture, but I'm sure something better could be worked out.

I personally think it should be turned off during fast travel as well, (you feel hunger and thirst but there is nothing to do about it since you can't eat while you're traveling) It should be managed like when you're in prisons. I hate to land on some place and immediately have handicaps while there was nothing I could do about it, it's particularity annoying when you travel to Northern locations in the map. Maybe you can make the whole thing optional and leave the choice of activating the scripts or not to the players.

Bathing and other stuff,
Yeah, I play Morrowind to escape the necessities of Real Life. Having some of them in game is really nice for atmosphere, since the ingredients are already there and edible and you sleep to restore your stats. But I want to see bathing as a mod, even it doesn't find its way to NOM. Those lava steam puddles can turn into Hamams. Maybe a patch can be done later to combine it with NOM. But I agree some necessitates are ugly. (And please choose Nords as Tellaks. I don't want Fargoth to do a full body massage to me. )

"..., I died"
Yes, I am familiar with the concept of death. And I know, I saw the various text messages but I died just like that. I decided to run to the first well I found, but I just died at 4th step... In real life,
you faint,
you collapse,
but you won't die just like that. I want to collapse and use my last Almsivi Intervention scroll to teleport to the nearest Temple. There, a healer will see me and rush to my help.(I think it can be scripted. Morrowind folks should show some mercy on us maybe the first time but they can do it. I have faith in them.)

And a bug report with NOM. I loaded an earlier save game just to find I am over-encumbered.

@SkyPiercer,
We are paying that much money, food and drink should be on the house.

I don't remember how the NOM configuration works, but during char gen I give the player the option not to start the scripts. The thing about that is that for NOM if it's not going to be used it rather negates the whole point of making or installing the mod.

The choices seem to be to either stop the scripts, which means you can sleep for 36 hours and wake up neither hungry or thirsty, which doesn't seem realistic to me, or let them run and impose penalties, which doesn't seem optimal either. I think for my mod at least, that the need for food and drink will be reduced during sleep... perhaps one point every 4 hours instead of every hour. At that rate you could sleep for nearly 3 days before getting a penalty if you ate and drank just before sleeping.

During travel, I think the scripts could be stopped. I mean, if you can eat and drink on a Greyhound bus, you could certainly do it while traveling turtleback, right?...

In fact, the pilot should offer you a complimentary juice and bag of peanuts on short trips and a choice of hound or rat (or scrib-cabbage for vegetarians) as an in-stride meal if your trip lasts through a normal meal-time. Be sure to fasten your seatbelts, and be careful of bug guts when stowing your carry-on in the luggage compartment.

Seriously, though... It would make sense for the necessities scripts to ignore travel time, since a very long trip would reasonably include some sort of accommodation for meals. Guild-guide travel is instantaneous, so it doesn't really matter for that. But time spent in silt-strider or boat travel shouldn't affect hunger or thirst. In fact, depending on how sleep requirements are implemented, it might even be reasonable to say the player takes a nap in-route if the travel time exceeds some amount, and allow that to apply towards it.