The Outsider : Othor Games

» Fri May 11, 2012 10:14 pm

I don't see why a game has to put gameplay before story. Why? Because it might not be fun?

Uhm ... yeah! Is this a rhetorical question?

Because it might become like a movie (non-interactive)?

Is this a rhetorical question?

[Stuff about novels and comic books and Schafer games]

I didn't understand your point about novels and comic books, and I haven't played Schafer games, so all of this argument is going over my head.

Also, you again said that any book or movie has better writing than any video game. It's literally right there at the beginning of your post. That statement is completely ridiculous and you have no evidence to back up the claim. "I stated that a game should not strive to be a movie (or a book, but good luck finding writers of that calibre in the video game industry)" Really?

Yes, really. (Let's not derail the thread, but) I am stating absolutely that no video game has yet produced a Citizen Kane, a Macbeth, a Leon, a Sputnik Sweetheart, a Lolita, a Count of Monte Cristo, a Gone with the Wind, a Casablanca, or even something like A Game of Thrones.

Would it really be so bad if in Dishonored they sacrificed the gameplay to enhance the narrative, and then by a result enhanced the overall experience?

^ You're skirting very close to begging the question, here. ^

A great example of this is Alan Wake, which sacrifices gameplay in order to tell a better story, which resulted in the player being further immersed in its world and characters.

I've played Alan Wake, but I didn't get the impression that it does this. How does it sacrifice gameplay to tell a better story?

The story themselves and the way they are structured is what needs to move away from being cinematic (I'm against that right now because in the mainstream that's choking originality and experimentation to death right now), but not cutscenes. It seems completely arbitrary to shut off cutscenes and cinematic tools that video games can use.

This is why I don't like cutscenes. Just like any tool, they're fine when they're used judiciously and appropriately, but at the moment they're a crutch, because the proper mindset mostly isn't there. Shadow of the Colossus, for instance, only used cutscenes when absolutely necessary, and in ways that made sense for the narrative that had already been established. That's fine. But don't take control away from the player and make the character do things that don't make sense for that character from an in-game perspective, and/or that the player can perfectly well do himself in-game. E.g. don't show me a cinematic of my FPS dude shooting things -- that's what I'm there to do.

I guess the point I'm trying to make in a not so clear way is that defining something as a certain category (movie, book, video game, etc.) and saying that they have to stay within the parameters of the category is silly.

I'm not saying that they have to stay in particular categories, but I am saying that the more you move away from one medium to another, the more the overall experience tends to suffer, because very (very) few people are good at that balancing act. Look at the clicky visual novel. Does that offer a good gameplay experience? No. And from the one or two I've read, they offer absolutely atrocious story.

Particular mediums have become mainstream because they're particularly good at what they do. When you try to mix the two or more of them, 99.9% of the time, you end up with drek.

How did we get here, again?

Right, the Outsider. And the plot of Dishonored. Look, vengeance as the driving force behind narrative is nothing new to video games, but I think there are enough twists and points of difference (like the supernatural puppeteer that is the Outsider) that it might be interesting nonetheless. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is the first game that will ever have been created that is able to go toe-to-toe with the stories that books and cinema have told. :tongue:

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:26 am

"Books and cinema." I find these words amusing. They are so laughably general. I am one of the most ardent bibliophiles you will ever know, and yet I am not so blind as to believe that 'books and cinema' are superior media for telling a story than is the video game. Your argument seems to be based on the inexplicable assumption that there are fewer books and films with bad stories than video games. Come now. There are innumerable terrible novels and movies to be found out there. For every Lord of the Rings you have two dozen Twilights. Most of them (thank god) never see the light of day, but believe me, they're there. Now there are also countless video games with plots ranging from nonexistent to terrible, but fewer, trust me, than there are bad 'books and cinema.'

There has yet to be a War & Peace of video games, but consider how staggeringly young this medium is. It is still developing, and you must see that we are getting more story-driven games of increasing quality. Bioshock, Amnesia, Bastion. Give it time. Classics should start cropping up any time now.

» Fri May 11, 2012 10:44 pm

"Books and cinema." I find these words amusing. They are so laughably general. I am one of the most ardent bibliophiles you will ever know, and yet I am not so blind as to believe that 'books and cinema' are superior media for telling a story than is the video game.

For someone who claims to be a bibliophile, you certainly have poor comprehension. That's not at all what I stated.

» Fri May 11, 2012 10:53 pm

I want the outsider to be played by Jeff Goldblum, nuff said.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:12 am

For someone who claims to be a bibliophile, you certainly have poor comprehension. That's not at all what I stated.

I won't compare credentials with you. What you think you stated and what you wrote are likely different things.

» Fri May 11, 2012 8:37 pm

No, you misread. I stated that a game should not strive to be a movie (or a book, but good luck finding writers of that calibre in the video game industry) because it's not a movie or a book, and making a movie-like (or book-like) game necessitates putting story before gameplay, and that doesn't make for a good game. I could offer some examples of these poor games, but that would derail the thread.

You can certainly tell a good story with a game and not sacrifice gameplay (Arkane seems to know that it's a game that they're working on, and not a movie, so the gameplay needs to be good), but you have to begin with the premise that the product you're working on is a game, not a movie or a book. I don't think any developer has quite gripped how to do that, yet, although there are certainly some people (mostly Japanese; they've been doing this the longest) that are moving in the right direction. Silent Hill and Shadow of the Colossus are two of my favourites because they get closest to telling a good story through gameplay. Bastion is another good example, because it has one of the NPCs tell you the story while you're playing, rather than wait for tedious cutscenes or text.

I expect Dishonored to be guided by that kind of spirit. Although it's possible that the writers have crafted an amazing story, I'm not holding my breath. However, it'll be good enough to give the player a reason to play the game.

Not this

I don't see why a game has to put gameplay before story. Why? Because it might not be fun? Because it might become like a movie (non-interactive)? Graphic novels and vanilla novels both focus on their narratives yet they manage to stay different from each other. They each focus on telling the narrative through different methods, but still are connected by their (atleast most novels) focus on the narrative. Why can't video games do the same? Tim Schafer's point and click games are [censored] awesome, and focus almost entirely on story.

Also, you again said that any book or movie has better writing than any video game. It's literally right there at the beginning of your post. That statement is completely ridiculous and you have no evidence to back up the claim. "I stated that a game should not strive to be a movie (or a book, but good luck finding writers of that calibre in the video game industry)" Really?

Would it really be so bad if in Dishonored they sacrificed the gameplay to enhance the narrative, and then by a result enhanced the overall experience? A great example of this is Alan Wake, which sacrifices gameplay in order to tell a better story, which resulted in the player being further immersed in its world and characters.

"Silent Hill and Shadow of the Colossus are two of my favourites because they get closest to telling a good story through gameplay."
I going to try really hard not to assume here :biggrin:

, but with this sentence and your previous opinions it almost sounds like you dislike cutscenes. Why? The story themselves and the way they are structured is what needs to move away from being cinematic (I'm against that right now because in the mainstream that's choking originality and experimentation to death right now), but not cutscenes. It seems completely arbitrary to shut off cutscenes and cinematic tools that video games can use.

I guess the point I'm trying to make in a not so clear way is that defining something as a certain category (movie, book, video game, etc.) and saying that they have to stay within the parameters of the category is silly. They're all art, and while they may have there differences that doesn't mean they can't borrow tools from other types of art. So, I don't like that you belittle video game narratives when they're the same art as everything else. :nod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFM1Csfwx2Y
=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_saUN4j7Gw

And I'm not even kidding. Both of these scenes carry enormous metaphorical weight.

This

Bastion is another good example, because it has one of the NPCs tell you the story while you're playing, rather than wait for tedious cutscenes or text.

BASTION!

Bioshock, Amnesia, Bastion.

BASTION!

Classics should start cropping up any time now.

This

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:41 am

I want the outsider to be played by Jeff Goldblum, nuff said.

That would be awesome, actually.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:41 am

[img]http://www.gamesas.com/images/smilie/snapback.png[/img]SeriousFace, on 09 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:
"Books and cinema." I find these words amusing. They are so laughably general. I am one of the most ardent bibliophiles you will ever know, and yet I am not so blind as to believe that 'books and cinema' are superior media for telling a story than is the video game.

For someone who claims to be a bibliophile, you certainly have poor comprehension. That's not at all what I stated.

Because it's a video game. If you're going into it expecting literary- or even cinema-quality story or characters, you're going to be disappointed. :tongue:

That's just how it is.

From what I've gathered (and I've gathered a lot; that wiki didn't fill itself ... :wink:

) the gameplay is the primary concern. The story is there to forward the gameplay, and not the other way around. Things are as they should be.

This isn't a "cinematic" experience. It's a "video game" experience. I like that. I'm tired of the, frankly, laughable efforts to make video games into something they aren't.

? Seems to be what you stated.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:07 pm

Wow, people ... where did you learn English? :blink:

I can understand if it's not your mother tongue, but otherwise, I'm ... aghast. :dead:

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:42 am

Just because it tells a story doesn't mean it has to be a scripted, linear piece of garbage filled with cutscenes. I want to actively play a video game not passively watch a movie, pep pep.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:53 am

Wow, people ... where did you learn English? :blink:

I can understand if it's not your mother tongue, but otherwise, I'm ... aghast. :dead:

Your condescension bemuses me more than it offends. I'll concede that my writing is not quite as flawless as it was before I began frequenting online forums, but you seem to be grasping at straws. I see no language on this page that falls outside the acceptable standards of online communication.

Honestly, my friend. We disagree here but I implore you to consider whether it is not, in fact, yourself that you are embarrassing. There is no need to engage any of us in this ridiculous contest of...education? Wit? I'm not even sure what you mean to prove.

Come now, let's agree to disagree and be done with it, what do you say?

» Fri May 11, 2012 11:57 pm

"Books and cinema." I find these words amusing. They are so laughably general. I am one of the most ardent bibliophiles you will ever know, and yet I am not so blind as to believe that 'books and cinema' are superior media for telling a story than is the video game. Your argument seems to be based on the inexplicable assumption that there are fewer books and films with bad stories than video games. Come now. There are innumerable terrible novels and movies to be found out there. For every Lord of the Rings you have two dozen Twilights. Most of them (thank god) never see the light of day, but believe me, they're there. Now there are also countless video games with plots ranging from nonexistent to terrible, but fewer, trust me, than there are bad 'books and cinema.'

There has yet to be a War & Peace of video games, but consider how staggeringly young this medium is. It is still developing, and you must see that we are getting more story-driven games of increasing quality. Bioshock, Amnesia, Bastion. Give it time. Classics should start cropping up any time now.

i like your view on things, lets hope were right

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:25 am

Your condescension bemuses me more than it offends. I'll concede that my writing is not quite as flawless as it was before I began frequenting online forums, but you seem to be grasping at straws. I see no language on this page that falls outside the acceptable standards of online communication.

Honestly, my friend. We disagree here but I implore you to consider whether it is not, in fact, yourself that you are embarrassing. There is no need to engage any of us in this ridiculous contest of...education? Wit? I'm not even sure what you mean to prove.

Come now, let's agree to disagree and be done with it, what do you say?

Let keep that as the end of it. Thanks.