My experience with Level Scaling : V - Skyrim

» Sun May 13, 2012 7:08 am

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but here's an obvious solution (and good for RPing as well). So if you really want to RP a crafter, that's fine. But as many have stated you are NOT a fighter, and many creatues are not going to going to stand by and watch you grow more powerful...yes even as a crafter you can now enchanter crazy stuff. YOu can now smith the best armor. Those creatures would be wise to train for that, right? So yes, they will grow stronger. With all cheesy RPing talk aside, it's simple game mechanics. But as a crafter you have other options. Craft some gear. Sell it. Train! Before you know it you will be a better fighter; AND crafter.

I'm sure there are other ways. But utilize the trainers atleast until you can hold your own.

EDIT: Bring a friend with you on your travels. It helps. I play a DnD/Everquest Paladin mix character, and I play on expert. He holds his own well enough, but not against mages. That's why I bring Lydia!

» Sun May 13, 2012 2:05 pm

So if I get this right, you tried to power-level for an advantage...and it turned out to be a disadvantage?

Working as intended????

» Sun May 13, 2012 2:23 am

This is very interesting to me. If you "level the [censored]" out of non-combat skills, how can you expect to be able to stand toe to toe with a baddass fighter? I can understand the surprise to players who aren't used to these types of games or who play ones where a trade skill doesn't factor into levels, but think about it logically.

» Sun May 13, 2012 6:36 am

So if I get this right, you tried to power-level for an advantage...and it turned out to be a disadvantage?

Working as intended????

Actually you don't get this right.

I keep seeing people complain about this, and everyone apparently has no idea how the leveling and skill system works, so let me break it down for you guys.

1) Your skill level in something does NOT change your stats, the perks you have purchased do. This means that if you have no perks, your skill level doesn't matter. For example, a character that has no perks in One-Handed Weapons will deal the exact same amount of damage if their skill level is 1 as they would if it were 100. This is the most important thing to remember.
2) You can purchase one perk in every skill tree without having increased that skill at all. This means that you have no excuse to not have at least 1 weapon and 1 armor perk bonus, regardless of your game or skill level. (Yes, you need a higher skill level to get more perks, but that is not my point here)
3) Equipment is a reflection of game level, but not skill level. You can start the game using Iron weapons, but you can later upgrade to Steel and then Elven or Ebony, etc. The higher quality the weapon or armor, the better its stats will be. You do not need to increase your skill level to be able to use these weapons. And as stated in #1, your skill level alone will not change the equipment's stats.
4) You can improve all weapons and armor once, regardless of skill level. Improving equipment increases its stats.
5) You can enchant all weapons and armor regardless of skill level. Enchanting equipment gives you increased stats or abilities.
6) Regardless of how you level, you get 10 points to spend in Magicka, Health, or Stamina. So if you are leveling through combat or crafting, you can increase your Health the same amount. More Health means you are harder to kill. Just as you gain Health as you level, so do the enemies. It's a logical progression.
7) You do not NEED any combat perks to be effective in combat. Seriously.
8) If you are fighting, which there is no way you cannot in this game, you WILL increase your combat stats, so you have no excuse to complain about not having access to higher level combat perks. Since you get a perk point every time you level, regardless of how you level, this means you have no room to complain about not having enough combat perks. If you want more, spend those points in combat skills rather than crafting or other non-combat skills.
9) Let me reiterate that your skill level does NOT change your stats, since no one seems to understand that. A character with skill level 1 in 1H Weapons will do the same damage with a weapon as the character with skill level 100, if they have no perks.
10) I am speaking from experience. I am level 25, playing on Expert, and I achieved about half of my leveling through all three types of crafting. Until level 20, I had 1 point in the One-Handed Weapons skill tree and 1 point in the Heavy Armor skill tree. My skill with One-Handed Weapons is 61, and my skill with Heavy Armor is 57. My skill with Smithing is 63. I have put the majority of my 10 point increases into Health. I am wearing Steel Plate armor that I crafted, improved, and enchanted myself (every piece), and I am using a Skyforge Steel Axe that I improved and enchanted myself. My follower is Lydia, who I equipped with an Imperial Bow that I improved and enchanted myself.

I have NO trouble fighting enemies- dragons, hagravens, trolls, mammoths, giants, mobs, you name it. If you are having trouble in combat, it is because you are bad at combat. Stop blaming the level scaling. If the game didn't scale, I would probably one-hit everything.

Wow from the first glance at 1 you clearly do not know anything about the game and yet you claim "that none understands".
And you say it's the most important thing to remember eh? :rofl:

Quite a funny one you are.
Yes your skillpoints do affect your stats in every skill.(damage of weapons, value or armors, mana costs, improvements etc) Test it with console. And as you say you only have 1 character and you are speaking from experience? Right, sure.

And repeating same thing again because some people just won't get it no matter how many times one will explain. It is not about difficulty. It is about how you are being weaker when you level a non-combat skill. People who have one character, play on adept and think everything is fine should not even have an opinion.

What did you expect dude? Merchants svck at fighting, but they are great at earning cash, that is why you can't expect a warrior to earn tonnes of money selling his loot compared to a merchant. See where im going with this?

If you want to be an alchemist, you have to use that skill to your absolute advantage! Like quick mapping 100's of health potions to your hotkey and surviving dungeons that way.

Jeez, people love to complain!

Oh really? What you don't get and obviously haven't tested is that for example if you raise "speaking" and get more money and buy better weapons, these weapons will be actually WORSE than your previous ones because the enemies will have leveled. If i took my time and raised alchemy and made a lot of potions to buff myself or heal in battle the enemies would get stronger and if i had not bothered at all, i would not even need these potions in the first place! Get it now? If you don't have 2 characters to compare it's hard to see that but it's there test it yourself.

This is very interesting to me. If you "level the [censored]" out of non-combat skills, how can you expect to be able to stand toe to toe with a baddass fighter? I can understand the surprise to players who aren't used to these types of games or who play ones where a trade skill doesn't factor into levels, but think about it logically.

Yes this is a logic that WOULD work if the game let you exploit the extra money and items to make up for combat. But guess what. Even merchant items are scaled and there is nothing you can find in shops/locked chests that it's not already in dungeons/open chests. In terms of pure rp this which you say, works, but in practice you get no real benefit for these skills for them to be worth raising. So if you want to be a "blacksmith" or anything else you might as well hang in a town and pretend to be one until you get bored and never go out to have an adventure. Personally (and i think 90% of the people playing) i want to rp a warrior/saviour/hero/whatever so i should not level up these skills right?

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:19 pm

I already stated once, if you crafted and feel over whelmed by the combat then use the trainers. That's what they are there for. My brother went the same route, plus he was sneaking every where and stealing. Went out to fight...squish. Told him to farm some ore/pelts. Craft and/or enchant. Sell. Train. Now he's killing dragons no problem. Did it cost him some gold, sure, but that's the price you pay if you want to be a straight up crafter from the get go. Also, if you don't want to spend the gold, fight wolves and mudcrabs...you know the low level stuff around Riverwood.

Just some suggestions.

» Sun May 13, 2012 9:39 am

"Oh really? What you don't get and obviously haven't tested is that for example if you raise "speaking" and get more money and buy better weapons, these weapons will be actually WORSE than your previous ones because the enemies will have leveled. If i took my time and raised alchemy and made a lot of potions to buff myself or heal in battle the enemies would get stronger and if i had not bothered at all, i would not even need these potions in the first place! Get it now?"

Where are you getting this idea from? If I understand correct (and I could be wrong) no creatures level up "level for level" with you. They spawn within a level range depending on the area you find them in I believe.

» Sun May 13, 2012 12:03 am

"Oh really? What you don't get and obviously haven't tested is that for example if you raise "speaking" and get more money and buy better weapons, these weapons will be actually WORSE than your previous ones because the enemies will have leveled. If i took my time and raised alchemy and made a lot of potions to buff myself or heal in battle the enemies would get stronger and if i had not bothered at all, i would not even need these potions in the first place! Get it now?"

Where are you getting this idea from? If I understand correct (and I could be wrong) no creatures level up "level for level" with you. They spawn within a level range depending on the area you find them in I believe.

This is correct. Accorcing to the strat guide, only guards level with you. Everything is pretty static within a 5 level range it would seem. This area is would be 5-10. If you go into the area 1-4 it will be level 5. If you go in at 6 it will be 6. 7 will be 7 etc etc. If you go in at level 11+ it will draw the highest level for that area, which will be 10. To me, that doesn't sound level for level.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:39 pm

"Oh really? What you don't get and obviously haven't tested is that for example if you raise "speaking" and get more money and buy better weapons, these weapons will be actually WORSE than your previous ones because the enemies will have leveled. If i took my time and raised alchemy and made a lot of potions to buff myself or heal in battle the enemies would get stronger and if i had not bothered at all, i would not even need these potions in the first place! Get it now?"

Where are you getting this idea from? If I understand correct (and I could be wrong) no creatures level up "level for level" with you. They spawn within a level range depending on the area you find them in I believe.

Nope mate wish it was like that. More accurately: Yes they are not exactly level to level as the one above says which is even more ridiculous if you think about it. Same enemies are easy until a point and suddenly become hard. But the end result obviously is exactly the same either way.
Enemies and items you find depend on your level with only a handful of exceptions.

For example: Same area... let's say a bandit camp (have already tested this): At level 5 equipped with rags you slaughter everyone with ease. If you go at level 20 in the SAME area with another character that has raised secondary skills too (not much) and has gear equal to his skill levels check how the enemies will be yourself.

This is correct. Accorcing to the strat guide, only guards level with you. Everything is pretty static within a 5 level range it would seem. This area is would be 5-10. If you go into the area 1-4 it will be level 5. If you go in at 6 it will be 6. 7 will be 7 etc etc. If you go in at level 11+ it will draw the highest level for that area, which will be 10. To me, that doesn't sound level for level.

Try going at level 25 with non-combat skills raised to a fair point, to bleak falls barrow or the bandit camps around windrun, which you can slaughter easily at level 5.

» Sun May 13, 2012 5:46 am

Nope mate wish it was like that.
Enemies and items you find depend on your level with only a handful of exceptions.

For example: Same area... let's say a bandit camp (have already tested this): At level 5 equipped with rags you slaughter everyone with ease. If you go at level 20 in the SAME area with another character that has raised secondary skills too (not much) and has gear equal to his skill levels check how the enemies will be yourself.

Been playing for 52 hours and not once has this happened to me. I'm level 21 by the way. The only bandit type character I've bumped into that had good gear was a thief who wanted my money. Had all rags and a elven helmet. But that was it. All bandits I have bumped into, even at level 21, all were leather or rags.

» Sun May 13, 2012 12:07 am

Been playing for 52 hours and not once has this happened to me. I'm level 21 by the way. The only bandit type character I've bumped into that had good gear was a thief who wanted my money. Had all rags and a elven helmet. But that was it. All bandits I have bumped into, even at level 21, all were leather or rags.

Their gear does not change their stats do. Why does it matter what they wear if the hit like a truck anyway lol.
What did not happen? You went there with 2 characters - one with combat skills only and second with some non-combat too?

» Sun May 13, 2012 1:35 am

I didn't have much trouble with 80 smithing(using glass armor) and 60 1-handed and light armor when I was around level 30, infact it was easier compared to when I was around level 10 still running around in light leather armor. The only problem was this frost dragon of some kind which spawned and seemed to follow me around everywhere and I could not kill him at all, blood dragons were fine but frost breath hit me hard losing lots of hp on each breath attack not to mention being instantly eaten and killed at around 30% health.

As I posted in another post on the forums, the problem with the scaling is that you pretty much hit your max power once you get weapon/armor/smithing up high, so playing a fighter type you would not really benefit from bring other skills up since the game becomes harder but you remain the same.

» Sun May 13, 2012 10:02 am

Their gear does not change their stats do. Why does it matter what they wear if the hit like a truck anyway lol.
What did not happen? You went there with 2 characters - one with combat skills only and second with some non-combat too?

Maybe it's the way I leveled my character (I use 1hnd, block, restoration, heavy armor, speechcraft, destruction) but these "buffed up" bandits, on expert, die in 3-4 hits. I'm still using a skysteel long sword. But it's enchanted with 8 fire damage. I utilize my shield bashes as well (I have the power bash perk). Lydia only comes with me when I dungeon crawl or need help with mages btw. I hate when she kill steals. :smile:

» Sun May 13, 2012 8:02 am

Maybe it's the way I leveled my character ( I use 1hnd, block, restoration, heavy armor, speechcraft, destruction) but these "buffed up" bandits, on expert, die in 3-4 hits. I'm still using a skysteel long sword. But it's enchanted with 8 fire damage. I utilize my shield bashes as well. Lydia only comes with me when I dungeon crawl or need help with mages btw. I hate when she kill steals. :smile:

I'm currently leveling my pure combat skills character on master. He just decimates everything - without potions - without armor from blacksmithing without anything - only what i find in dungeons. My previous character who had leveled blacksmithing, a little enchanting and a little alchemy had quite a harder time.

When i compare these 2 characters (same build and all) It's like the one who leveled these skills was punished.
So now when i play a character i get all excited when these awesome skills are around for me to play with but when i think that i will gimp my character by leveling them little by little i just can't enjoy them anymore and i believe this is fully understandable.

» Sun May 13, 2012 10:11 am

And its still better then oblivion

» Sun May 13, 2012 3:25 am

"For example: Same area... let's say a bandit camp (have already tested this): At level 5 equipped with rags you slaughter everyone with ease. If you go at level 20 in the SAME area with another character that has raised secondary skills too (not much) and has gear equal to his skill levels check how the enemies will be yourself."

Sorry, but that does not make one lick of sense.

» Sun May 13, 2012 7:05 am

"For example: Same area... let's say a bandit camp (have already tested this): At level 5 equipped with rags you slaughter everyone with ease. If you go at level 20 in the SAME area with another character that has raised secondary skills too (not much) and has gear equal to his skill levels check how the enemies will be yourself."

Sorry, but that does not make one lick of sense.

Really? What part didn't you understand?

And its still better then oblivion

Agreed But not from Oblivion modded

I surely hope construction set gets released soon and that modders do the same good job Obscuro did with Oblivion.

» Sun May 13, 2012 2:12 pm

I see the solution your looking for.

You want creature levels to scale according to combat skills only. and loot to scale to the tertiary skills.

Instead of scaling directly to the character level.
Pick the highest valued combat skill and scale creature levels against that

» Sun May 13, 2012 1:24 pm

Yep the scaling svcks. Bethesda said in interviews they changed it on the idea they could make it more fair and 'better' and root out some of the level cheating you could do in Oblivion (eg keep jumping everywhere to increase stamina or keep conjuring scamps to increae conjurations skill quickly.)

But guess what? It didn't work. There is still level cheating-keep casting a muffle spell every chance you get while walking through towns and villages and watch your illusion skill rocket upwards. Not to mention the side perks like smithing or alchemy did not have to increase your level, they were just a nice side skill you could acquire at your leisure. No, now it ALL counts which means if you so much as trade your goods or make some better armour then your level is going up too quick and that bad guys that started off a challenge kick your ass in a few blows if caught unawares. Better luck next time guys. Maybe the next Elder Scrolls can look as good as Skyrim but a better level and menu system thanks. :rolleyes:

» Sun May 13, 2012 5:30 am

This level scaling talk is mind boggling. The Creatures themselves do not scale. They maybe replaced with a diffrent creature within the same subtype that will be stronger. A bandit becomes a Bandit Outlaw. Kinda reminds me of Morrowind. A rat becomes a diseased rat. Or like FO3, which is what people wanted. But, staring at the book right now, it says bandit level 1. Now, the bandit outlaw is level 5, but we can clearly read that it's not just a regular bandit now. So it's going to be tougher.

The only thing the guide say that does level from level to level is the town guards.

EDIT: To the poster above me. There is no better luck next time, because Skyrim nailed it perfectly (some flaws but no game is perfect). If you decided to power-game (which you can expliot ANY game in made if you play like that) then yea, your going to cheapen your experience with the game. As for crafting, maybe they put it in for RPing, not just to game it up. If someone wants to go out into the wilds, yes even if it's dangerous, and get materials for the craft they have the oppertunity. The thrill of getting owned by a dragon while trying to gather crafting materials sounds pretty realistic and actually pretty fun. I may try it.

Since people are complaining about getting their butts handed to them because they went the crafting route... like I stated before (maybe a diffrent thread), my brother went the same route went craft route, even sneaking and pickpocketing... he was a squishy I tell you. I adivsed him to grind for some cash and train in combat oriented skills. My bro is whoopin' dragon butt now.

» Sun May 13, 2012 3:37 am

Essentially you are complaining because the game requires strategy in character development.

Early game, you rely on sneak attacks with bows. If enemies get to close you cast an illusion on them. You are an archer/illusionist. At level 20, you should not decide you are a melee warrior, your skill with a sword is too low, you don't know how to block, and you aren't used to wearing heavy armor.

Early game, you run around mining and gathering herbs, crafting equipment and bringing in an enormous profit. You are a merchant supply distributor. At level 20, you should not decide you are a melee warrior, your skill with a sword is too low, you don't know how to block, and you aren't used to wearing heavy armor.

Scaling off combat skills only would be a huge mistake. The higher your thief skills, the stronger you would be relative to your enemies. You would then post complaining that if you don't want to smith/enchant/pickpocket you are underpowered.

» Sun May 13, 2012 8:58 am

And repeating same thing again because some people just won't get it no matter how many times one will explain. It is not about difficulty. It is about how you are being weaker when you level a non-combat skill.

In Morrowind, and even in Oblivion, I never had an issue with more-powerful enemies appearing as I gained levels. I also have no issue with it in Skyrim (not yet, anyway), so I suspect that there is no fault with scaling in the game, only with players' perspectives. You can become relatively weaker when you level a non-combat skill. So what? You still gain a little power, even if just a small boost in health, stamina, or magicka. If you have raised combat-relevant skills in addition to your non-combat skills, then you gain even more power. In addition, we have our own wits, which tend to out-do any AI. Most important, we can still handle the game's challenges.

The OP's argument centers on the condition that more-dangerous enemies appear because he gains levels. That "because" is a self-imposed stressor, not a fault of the game. The bottom line is that dangerous enemies exist. You will face them. If you are level 30, you are likely to encounter tougher enemies than you did at level 20. You know that is how how the world is, and you know what is coming. Just accept it and figure out a solution.

Why you encounter opponents of a particular strength is irrelevant. If harder enemies didn't appear because you gained levels, if they simply existed from the beginning, you wouldn't complain. You would work with it. If you have a level-30 pickpocket-merchant, and you know that there are always several aggressive, battle-hardened, level-30 killers in some particular cave, you wouldn't see an irritating design flaw. Instead, you would only say, "I'm not going in there! I'm not ready for that!" Yet, if the level-30 killers are there "because" you gained a level, suddenly the game is horribly flawed and unbalanced? Hardly.

If you don't want to deal with playing a weaker fighter, then aim for a combat ability appropriate for your level. Please don't do what the OP is doing, which is demand that the developers make it impossible for us to become relatively weak fighters. Your choices determine how weak or how strong you are. Good choices can make even a weak fighter a viable character.

» Sun May 13, 2012 11:35 am

Had typed something out a little more forward then this, but it's Monday and I'll leave it at this.

If you plan on being a blacksmith, merchant, enchanter, etc. don't expect to mop the floor with enemies lurking in dungeons. Unless you plan on bartering with them. :wink_smile:

Blacksmithing is quite strong tho and so is enchanting. However if you're just going with supporting perks then you're doing something terribly wrong if you want to be able to fight properly.

» Sun May 13, 2012 10:22 am

closed to review