Regarding Subscriber Numbers

Post » Mon May 14, 2012 10:55 am

Graphics don't make a game. How old are you?
Come on now, let's try and keep at least one thread in this forum mature and understanding. Graphics do matter in a game, to some more than others. It's fine if graphical quality and a coherent art style aren't very important to you personally, but to some it means the difference between enjoying a game they plan on spending vast amounts of time in, or looking at it in disgust and genuinely not being able to enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks. But if Zenimax turn too many people off with their current art style, then that's detrimental to the player base as a whole. I think it's a valid point to suggest that the current art style might not be the best direction. Whether it's too late to change it or not though... that's certainly up for argument.

But hey, maybe they'll appease players who love graphics above all else by announcing that every single texture in the game has been optimized for tessellation. That would be awesome.
If they learn anything from Rift, it's to make sure you have enough content.

From the interview, it appears that ZO want a quick, easy ride to max level like Rift, so unlike Rift they need a lot of end game content at the end of that ride. And some of that end game content needs to be challenging and difficult enough to occupy the hardcoe players. Not all of the content, but just enough to engage those hardcoe players until new content arrives. Big games may make their money from a large, casual playerbase, but never forget many small games do very well simply because they've connected with a smaller, dedicated, hardcoe market.
I'm guessing that's what the big push for PVP in Cyrodiil is about - a somewhat dynamic (yeah, I'm still upset they went with pre-defined factions instead of player-created, but hey ho) eternal struggle for power amongst end-game players. I'm a little concerned about PVE, since all they've really said about it is that they want raids. Maybe some players love raiding and heroics in WoW, but I've always been turned off by how repetitive PVE is. It's the same thing each time, killing the same boss each time, and being told you've saved the world... again. I hate Battlegrounds in WoW and SWTOR for the same reason - fighting in an enclosed environment to capture an enemy flag for... some reason. Only to do it all over again when you win or lose. No sense of progression from a story perspective.

Open world PVP provides that sense of progression. Capturing the Imperial City will no doubt feel immense. I'd love to hear that they've created an equally dynamic system for PVE players, because I feel that's something the MMO genre is missing right now. They could slap the word 'Radiant' on the new dynamic system and everything would make sense. Their current idea about having a heroic dungeon tell a different story (part 2, it sounds like) to its normal difficulty counter-part is really not much of a solution. If it's still a fully scripted and linear event, then it's still going to be repetitive. Create something dynamic for PVE, and I'll be amazed. In fact, I might be tempted to play PVE over PVP for once.
Give players meaning. A reason to stick around. Give them pride.

Easier said than done, right?

I will call on two past titles that hit it right on the head while everyone is talking about combat systems. By no means am I saying it isn't important, it's just too obvious.

One, DAoC gave players a feeling of pride for their realm. They would do well to delve into the reasons why players felt pride in their realm. The entire leveling process was done in secluded lands that fit a certain theme and art style. The character became familiar with it and that design helped that player feel like it was their home. Stepping into the frontiers was a culture shock to many. Your enemies lands and character appearance was vastly different than your own. They were trying to kill you and take your land. They were laying seige to your keeps and attempting to take your relics. People don't generally like others coming into their 'home' and stealing their belongings. It's that sort of meaning in PvP and PvE that keeps people coming back.

Two, Ultima Online. While these two online games are vastly different, Zenimax needs to look at a big reason why (to piggyback the above) people feel as though they can call it a home. Public player housing. Being able to purchase and own a small piece of the world your character 'lives' in. Being able to decorate that home however you would like to and to show it off to your friends. In the last two installments of TES single player games, housing was a huge advantage to have. You wanted that house because it acted as your bank. You used that extra space to hold all of the riches you gathered from adventure and gathering. It was like a really large backpack, like a huge safety net, it was a 'home'. So many developers under-value the housing feature and often throw it aside for more PvP and PvE content.

Ultimately, making your players feel as though they have a home in your game world is a great weapon to have as a game company. A reason, meaning for, a home are all crucial to THIS player base. We aren't your typical ADD kids running around 'pew-pewing' everything in our mothers basemants. Zenimax needs to understand who their audience is.
This is a great post, and I hope the devs read it. This is actually why I love player-created factions, because you're teaming up with like-minded people instead of being lumped into a faction with people who's resemblances are literally only skin deep. When you're fighting for the Imperial City, or to defend a place your faction has grown accustomed to calling home, with an alliance of players who know why they are fighting for control, and why they are fighting to keep player-run factions with opposing views and political goals off the Imperial throne, the game would achieve that sense of purpose.

But absolutely - player owned homes in an open environment would lend themselves to that goal very well too, and I'd love to see Zenimax reconsider this decision. Don't do what Bioware did and say "we're working on it, and it will come in the form of DLC." - that doesn't work. Players get impatient. They'll realize they're paying monthly for a product that isn't yet complete enough to their satisfaction. Do it from the start, and do it well.
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Steve Bates
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 11:59 pm

I say ditch the single player stale games, bring BGS on full board with Zeni, and create the biggest MMO ever. People will cling to it like nothing we've ever seen.

While that would be about the dumbest move they could do from a business perspective, maybe then with the Beth team on board we'd get a proper TES MMO worthy of the name instead of this current load of tripe.

I actually believe that end-game is a huge issue. That's where Rift went very wrong. Developers almost always OVER-estimate how long it will take a player to get to level cap. So if the ESO devs estimate 120 hours, I guarantee the first person to cap will reach it in 80 hours or so. That's not very long. Not at all. If they think they can rest on their laurels for a week or two before a significant amount of player reach the cap, they have another think coming.

They also can't rely completely on the PVP/RVR endgame, there have to be a myriad of end-game raids for people who love PVE.

Also, DAS1337 makes some excellent points about pride and home.
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kristy dunn
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:13 am

Graphics don't make a game. How old are you?


I am not a TES Lore fan by any stretch of the imagination. The only other Tes Game I have played besides Skyrim was Oblivion and i only played it a couple of times. The NPC and player graphics and the dialogue were utterly pathetic in Oblivion. Every time one of them spoke I cringed with distaste. Even the Anime mods made me puck. Moreover, given our current economy with the cost of living rising exponentially faster that income and jobs there is no way I am ever going to pay-to-play for a cartoonish looking game. I am reminded of a carnival barker getting you hooked on a shell game.

If you are referring to my quote above I am well into my sixties. Allow me to say this: I understand that online game developers have to downgrade their graphics and textures to accommodate lower end computers and Internet connections to avoid lag during game play.

However, that doesn’t mean that I have to like it or play it. For me it is all about the eye candy and I am not just referring to skimpily dressed women (or men). Also, I am not a fan of first grade level dialogue either.
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ILy- Forver
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:02 am

Somewhat of a pointless comparison. There are many reasons for SWTOR being in the current slump that it is. A substantial drop in subscribers after the first month or two is the norm for any MMO in this day-in-age. That being said, SWTOR was officially announced way too soon due to the incompetence of EA and besides the story, being the main focus of the MMO, most of the other features, especially end game, were not complete for launch. So now, BioWare is suffering from rapidly trying to shell out content that should have been in at launch but was not due to story taking more time than anticipated. I think eventually BioWare may fix this issue, but many will likely have left by then for games like GW2 and whatever else is on the horizon.

Regardless, yes TESO is apparently using the Hero Engine like SWTOR and yes it likely has a large budget like SWTOR, but that's where the similarities really begin and end. This game has been in development almost as long as SWTOR and has been kept a secret for pragmatic reasons so the fans wouldn't have to wait years for the game raising anxiety and hostility towards the project. The only potential issue TESO needs to be concerned about is being placed as a "GW2 Clone." While the fate of GW2 is still undetermined, it's success could have profound effects on the industry, especially since it shares so many similarities with TESO. That being said, from what little we know of TESO already, it is showing great promise, and whatever happens will come down to how development goes and how ZeniMax Online markets the game. I think it's also safe to say this game will likely have a P2P model, as F2P is still very much a taboo in the MMO industry and micro-transactions are looked down upon by many. Only time will tell.
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Cagla Cali
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:09 pm

I think their plans for world PvP amid shifting Alliances will provide TESO with legs since it means that there should always be something to do in-game. I'm not sure exactly how different coats of paint need to be for combat systems to be considered "different," but any combat system will need to be enjoyable by variously skilled players with varying latencies.
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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 2:57 am


1) Why is SWTOR bleeding numbers so soon? Is that to be expected? Should Bioware be worrying, and considering methods of stopping this player-bleed before the numbers get too close to their minimum line of 500k?

2) Is there anything Zenimax could learn from SWTOR's opening 6 months? Lessons that can be applied to TES Online's launch window to ensure a higher number of starting players, and to provide an experience enjoyable enough to hold on to those players.


That would be my advice on how to aim for a good start, and keep those player numbers up. What would yours be?

1. They themselves say it's largely because of people's free time running out. Obviously, not everyone who buys the game will stick around, and since it was a very hyped game, this will indeed be a large factor. However, I think they should at least be slightly worried, because you'd also expect to attract new buyers, especially so early on. What happened with WoW was it was hyped, it delivered, people hyped it even more. With SWTOR it seems like it hasn't really delivered and therefor isn't hyped anymore. It might stay at around 1 million subs for quite some time, or it could drop even further, but I don't see it growing much any time soon. If it has cost them 200 million to develop, with all the boxes sold (including CE's and whatnot) and the subs so far, they've probably already earned their investment back. But unless they figure out a way to make the game "special", it think it will go into slow decline, go F2P in some time and eventually be cancelled. It'll be a few years though, even if only because they are quite commited. Of course, there's always a chance that LA will order them to completely change the game because it isn't Starwarsy and Iconic (read: earning GL buckets of money) enough ^^

2. Oh, countless things. Most important: figure out who your target audience is and what they want (whether they know it or not), then deliver. Step 1 is deciding if they want to convert TES players to TES:O players, of if they want to simply attract WoW/SWTOR/ETC players.

My advice would be to make a truly original MMO which departs from the core gameplay of Level up, Gear up, rinse repeat.
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Mark
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 1:37 pm

I have a hard time believing that someone in their sixties couldn't get into Daggerfall because of its graphics. That's something I would expect a gamer from this generation to say that if anything.
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James Baldwin
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:58 pm

I say ditch the single player stale games, bring BGS on full board with Zeni, and create the biggest MMO ever. People will cling to it like nothing we've ever seen.

You must secretly want Bethesda to go bankrupt lol.
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Lyd
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:00 pm

opps double post
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stephanie eastwood
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:09 pm

I have a hard time believing that someone in their sixties couldn't get into Daggerfall because of its graphics. That's something I would expect a gamer from this generation to say that if anything.
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I never played it. Now that said, I really enjoyed the heck out of Dragon Age Origins, for its advlt theme and not not just for the six either. And, I still pay it occasionally. I also played Dungeon Siege when it first came out. Moreover, I played the very first Fallout game; and, all of the Heroes of Might and Magic games; as well as Battlefield 2142 and COD, along with a couple of Tom Clancey games. Incidentally, I also played the original US Army game when it first came out.
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Stu Clarke
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 1:03 pm

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I never played it. Now that said, I really enjoyed the heck out of Dragon Age Origins, for its advlt theme and not not just for the six either. And, I still pay it occasionally. I also played Dungeon Siege when it first came out. Moreover, I played the very first Fallout game; and, all of the Heroes of Might and Magic games; as well as Battlefield 2142 and COD, along with a couple of Tom Clancey games. Incidentally, I also played the original US Army game when it first came out.

You really should give Daggerfall a try... It's free from Bethesda now. so http://www.elderscrolls.com/daggerfall/ and give it a chance. I don't think you will be disappointed...
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Richard Thompson
 
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