I feel this merits it's on thread, as I think it offers a reasonable reason as to why you can't help The White Legs join the Legion.

Now, through various dialogue options you can get Graham to tell you that Caesar refused to acknowledge that Graham didn't die when lit on fire and tossed into the canyon. He want's to appear powerful and unstoppable, and admitting that he failed is not something he is willing to do. Even losing the Dam the first time he managed to move the blame from himself and put it onto Graham, saying that his Legate failed him, not that he failed. He uses frumentari and assassin's to try and finish what he failed to do in the first place, with no success. I imagine that, even if his assassins had succeeded, they would likely be put to death before his Legion found out what they were being commended for in order to hide that he failed from them. If you kill Graham and Daniel and take the map instead of completing the quests, the White Legs are still denied entrance into the Legion. It comes back to him being unwilling to admit defeat, having white legs in the legion telling the soldiers that they earned their place by killing Graham would be akin to them telling the soldiers "Your master failed, but WE didn't".

I can't imagine any good way to write a path that the Courier could take to assist them. Graham tells you up front that Caesar won't admit defeat, and even if you didn't take the dialogue options to hear this, you could reason that the Courier understands that Caesar would be displeased with having someone telling others he succeeded where Caesar failed just by the fact that he put blame on his Legate instead of taking responsibility himself. It would be poor writing for the Courier to do it anyway, with full knowledge that he would be defeating his own purpose, that of assisting the Legion, by doing so. The only way I could imagine this to work is if you were to start Honest Hearts straight away after leaving Doc Mitchells home, having no knowledge that NCR and Legion were in the mojave, and even then I don't think you could write a compelling story with that.

You can help the White Legs. Convince the Dead Horses and Sorrows to evacuate Zion. Then the White Legs get the territory and Caesar lets them join the Legion.

That's the ending slider from evacuating I presume, it's still anti-Legion as White Leg's aren't successful and fall apart after being denied into the Legion.


This is the ending from killing Daniel and leaving Zion with the map, the fail safe ending.
Doesn't state that they were successful and accepted into the Legion here either.

The only other DLC reference to the main game seemed to be Dead Money's final verbal sparring with Elijah, where a despised reputation with NCR can let you end the DLC by aiding him. I'd say that any pro Legion choices wouldn't impact the game beyond the dlc, since the Legion really won't hear about it, so I'd rather have more opportunities to let my [Rep] allow additional options for dialog or trade. Like a pro Legion rep could have you hearing more about TBM or getting discounts for being anti NCR, at least being Legion should have TBM getting annoyed at you.

And why couldn't I? If I were playing Legion I certainly would..
I understand your frustration but to say there is no way of accomplishing things for a Legion player is inaccurate..

Helping the White Legs wouldn't really help the Legion in any substantive way unless you consider helping Caesar clean up an embarrassing mistake to be inherently pro-Legion. It's worth noting that if you do Chaos In Zion and actually kill Joshua Graham yourself, the White Legs still aren't accepted into the Legion. Caesar just wants Graham dead and the White Legs are the scumbags to do it. We discussed doing a White Legs-oriented path through Honest Hearts but a) it would have been out of scope and b ) it still would likely have ended with you doing essentially Chaos in Zion: killing Daniel and/or Joshua Graham.

In retrospect, associating the White Legs with the Legion was probably my key mistake. Take the exact same tribe doing the exact same thing and remove their association with the Legion and people would not conclude that opposing them = opposing the Legion or that helping the New Canaanites = helping the Legion's enemies. The New Canaanites, though fundamentally opposed to the Legion, aren't really the parties in conflict. Caesar hates Joshua Graham, regardless of the lack of threat posed by New Canaan, the Sorrows, and the Dead Horses.

Thanks for clearing this up.
Okay, that negative aspect of HH is scratched of my list of complaints. :wink_smile:

Thanks Sawyer! That really cleared things up a bit for me.

I also just wanna thank you for being a key part in bringing Caesar's Legion to Fallout NV (Despite a some-what poor implementation)

As much as I'd love to carry more of my game with me into DLC, since we can't really use any of those reputations with downloaded content, why even include those references? I liked the burned man and hearing his take on things, the story of Ceasar's greatest generals failure could've been left out entirely. The story could've been the story of heroic Bob and his attempts to defend his family despite severe acne. My point, if belated, is I wonder why, when we are prevented from affecting the main game or even the outcome of the DLC due to restictions of the story, why relate the DLC to the main quest at all?

I actually liked the White Legs having an association with Caesar's Legion. It gives them a motivation to fight, instead of "ARGH ME EVIL, ME ATTACK NOW". Though it would've been fun to fight on the side of the White Legs, especially since most tribal-orientated Couriers will side with factions like the Legion and the Khans. Even if it means betraying the White Legs in the end, it would have been nice to fight alongside them to take down Joshua.

Well if you really want to make Honest Hearts pro-Legion it's actually easier than you think.

Caesar wants Graham dead. The White Legs are Graham's enemies. I see a few simple options here.

1. Your character was sent there to scout and make sure Graham would will never return (one way or another)
2. The White Legs are doing things for Caesar without his approval...eradication time. (Legions wants the idiots killed off)
3. You pretend to help Graham until you can become an ally and later assassinate him.

I'm sure a good rper could easily come up with a way to be pro-legion in the game if they really wanted to.

too bad the white legs weren't given a happier ending.

a better question is, why is there no middle ground in this DLC, though i am on PS3, so i would not know.

should there have been an option to send Daniel and the sorrows out of the valley, but then help Graham and the dead horses defend it?

I believe Graham brought the Dead Horses to Zion to defend the Sorrows. The Dead Horses aren't native to Zion and don't intend to stay there. If the Sorrows leave there's nothing there for the Dead Horses to protect.

could they not defend them while they escape.

sort of like keeping the enemy's eye on you while the non-combatants flee

That's essentially what Flight From Zion is.

Now that I think about it there aren't many choices at all and those there are are very black and white.
Actually, scratch that, there's two gray choices and a bunch of white choices.

Overall the DLC did feel very linear with all the choices coming by the final quest very very hastily put together.

Like I said in the other thread, I would have loved to pose as the Sorrows god and take control of them and have Daniel beheaded and wage war against Graham.
Oh well, OWB sounds like a Dead Money esque DLC so hopefully the characters and quests there will have more choices.

Sawyer, dunno why ya'll decided against being able to side with White Legs but it would really have helped the DLC, could have given 4 more choices:
(You can only pursue one group.)
1. Pursue Sorrows that are fleeing. (And kill Daniel)
2. Meet Daniel by the end of 1 and Speech/Charisma/Barter/Survival him into leaving peacefully.
3. Attack the Dead Horses head on. (And kill Graham)
4. Meet up with Graham and Speech/Charisma/Survival/Medicine him into leaving.
5. If you kill Daniel and Graham prior to the final quest then you report to the White Leg leader of what you've done and give him the map Daniel had, the White Legs close off the exits to Zion and traps the Sorrows and Dead Horses inside this valley of death.
(If Pursuing the Sorrows then the White Legs cut off all exits to Zion and the Dead Horses and Graham slowly dies out after fighting for months with no rest, if attacking the Dead Horses then few of the Sorrows escapes and the White Legs will have failed their mission and a tragic ending awaits for the White Legs.)

Then if you help the companions before siding with White Legs you get some more:

1. If helped Follows-Chalk and convinced him to leave then he'll not be there during the battle and in the ending slider it says he left ashamed of his cowardice into the wasteland to find a new meaning in life but that the event of him leaving the others behind haunts him every day.
2. If convinced him to stay among his group then he'll be met during the battle and can be killed, if killed his ending slider speaks of how he fought bravely amongst his fellow brethren but now only lies in Zion as forgotten bones of a forgotten tribe where so many has been before. If you avoid killing him then he gets 1.
3. I never did her quest so I have no idea what her story is but here's another ending slider for her.
4. And another one for the other choice.

But yeah about the Legion RP thingie, it was a great idea for pro-Legion players such as myself, I'm sure gonna try it out the next Legion character I have.

Earlier in the thread I wrote: a) it would have been out of scope.

This is the biggest reason. Having an idea is very different from having the resources to implement that idea, much less implement and test that idea. We've had enough problems with content that comes across as half-implemented and/or buggy. Adding a separate quest line adds many more permutations and testing requirements to an area's content. I always like giving viable options to the player, but I have to treat scope issues seriously.

If I kill Joshua, will I get special conversation option with Caesar? :hehe:

This worries me about OWB.

Not if you want to stay alive. Eddie's demented reasoning is that Graham must be believed dead. It's propaganda.
That's why 'helping' the White Legs is a very bad idea for Legion supporters and also why the White legs are never assimilated into the legion. No one can know that Graham is alive.
Graham has no interest in revenge and no longer cares about Ceasar. Killing him is pointless -- killing him and then telling Eddie about it is suicide.

Want to support the Legion? Kill the White Legs, let Graham go and keep quiet about it.

It doesn't support the NCR either...so whats their to whine about. HEY it doesn't support House, Yes Man, NCR, OR the Legion. So it's exactly what a DLC should be like...non altering to the endings

Its because The Burned Man is connected to the Legion and tribe conquest is also a big part of the Legion aswell. It would have been sensible to out some form of Legion option in the DLC. The Legion got shafted in the main game, it isn't suprising that people want something to give supporters more quests.