I agree with some of what you said but getting rid of Level Scaling would ruin the game in my opinion I don't wanna find Daedric Armor at Level 1. The level Scaling needs to be tweaked but not gotten rid of completely. Lets not have Skryim become New Vegas in that department.

I think some scaling is necessary, primarily just to balance out the game so for instance you don't frequently run into enemies and situations that are far out of your character's league at a low level and conversely don't feel like an absolute demi-God at higher levels. Also, it's necessary to scale things to some extent to adjust to different difficulty settings-although technically the entire game could be scaled solely in that regard I suppose as well.

Anyway, I agree that Fallout 3 was a step in the right direction. I still noticed scaling to some extent, however. For example in one play through I tackled a location that was crawling with Super Mutants and I was at a higher level, on another play through I went there a bit earlier and a lower level and there weren't quite as many to deal with. I can't really complain about that too much however since the change is relatively imperceptible compared to Oblivion.

Actually, I'll list the basic problems:

Enemy Scaling: You encounter a pack of mountain lions in an early Fighter's Guild quest but can't find them anywhere else until you reach a certain level. Where are all these different enemies hiding while your'e at a lower level anyway? The variety of enemies in Oblivion is already a bit low and this is only made worse by the fact that you can only encounter a limited number of them at the start of the game. Playing at a lower difficultly makes this a little worse even since you don't level up as quickly.

Another problem is that you could be ready to face certain tougher enemies, maybe you've got a good strategy or powerful enough weapons, magic and/or armor to deal with them-this game doesn't even give you a chance to try and take on a situation you might not be ready for.

Item Scaling: This really bothered me, especially with items shops in-particular. So you save up a bunch of money and want to buy some really cool weapons and/or armor but you're limited to what's presently available for your character's level. I like being able to see a really nice but very expensive set of armor in a shop then work hard to be able to eventually get it. You also get a similar sense to what happens to enemies-where were all these powerful items when I was at a lower level? Why do so many enemies start carrying more powerful weapons and wearing more powerful armor?

I think doing away with level scaling completely could end up taking us into another extreme altogether. A proper balance needs to be struck, the player shouldn't want to level up only for the sake of seeing some new enemies or finding some new weapon or armor types, they should also want to level up to be more capable of taking on greater challenges, of being able to defeat enemies that were once difficult or even impossible to take on with a bit more ease. This doesn't mean there needs to be high level enemies all over the place or the player stumbling on a regular basis into something that instantly kills them-more like a few places they'll go to once and be like "Okay, maybe I'm not quite ready for that yet."

Actually, on that topic it'd be interesting to see "leveled quest availability", like as the player progresses through the game and gets more powerful and gains more renown more characters will be comfortable giving the player character more challenging quests. This happened to some extent in the guilds in Morrowind-you'd sometimes reach a point where you need to increase some of your skills first before being given more quests-I'm not sure if it should be quite that strict but it makes it feel more like the world is evolving and new challenges and quests are becoming available over time.

No, it was done terribly in Oblivion, I'd much rather Skyrim just has different levels of fiends throughout like most RPG's. Like, as a newbie in the world you'll want to stay on the roads but as you get stronger you'll be able to venture more freely, though there's always a danger that you'll run into one much too powerful. I'd love it if the wild worked like that!

Well I havent played Morrowind but I can tell its a lot better than Oblivion (my opinion is not based entirely off this thread, I have acquired information elsewhere). I think level scaling should be limited to a certain area near the starting point, but out of this area is a mixture of high/low level enemies. But have more high lvl enemies because the low lvls would not want to go there on account of all the minotaurs and land dreughs. bliviongate: Also, decrease the effect the difficulty bar has on the game. In Oblivion, turning the difficulty bar halfway down made practically every weapon a one-hit kill weapon.


EDIT: I would also like it if super high lvl and/or super rare enemies wouldnt run/fly/swim so damn fast like in Fallout 3 or Fallout NV (deathclaw, yao guai, cazador).

I think all monsters (Not Vampires) should have a max level, Goblins included if they are in Skyrim.

You really had fun killing gobbo warlords for 10minutes?

Never stated that I wanted to get rid of it. I just want to see it being applied in a more realistic fashion which promotes adventure and exploration. Not having everything levelled, but some things levelled (with cap) and some things handplaced and static equipped

I just want scaling to go as far as monster toughness and weapon, Armor and spell potency

The reason why I'm saying it is I don't want Skyrim to become like Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas where you just sneak past a particular enemy and then your Characters broken for the 1st half of the game or more. I don't mind that some enemies have a max level heck some of them deserve it like the Goblin Warlords in Oblivion those should have been maxed at Level 18.

But what if I hate said puppies and kittens, small animals are not "cute...."

I like that it makes it so you cannot go to a place where you know there is a daedric piece of armor and take it at level 1. I do not like that it makes everyone have daedric armor at level 20. I think that they should have a mixture of them. If you get really lucky, you should be able to find a dungeon with level 30 enemies surrounding a daedric helmet when you are level 1, but be unable to get it until later on, or you should be able to find that pretty much all level 50 enemies have either daedric armor, or some blessed armor, though a battle with level 50 enemies should be like an epic showdown that you struggle with at level 100.

i dont like level scaling, i liked in morrowind how u had to avoid certain areas of the map/enemies until u were strong enough

Exactly. Why is a Rat a level 1 when you're level 1; and suddenly a level 20 when you're level 20? They should be the pesky things a farmer can shoo away with a broom. So rats could be capped at a maximum of level 2-3. Common brigands, bandits, highwaymen could be capped at level 8. Dangerous when encountered in a group at lower levels, but not too much to worry about when you're wearing a full suit of Daedric Armor and carrying the famous axe Firemourne. This cap combined with a Fame/Infamy 'scanner' could then be implemented as a form of intimidation-factor which would affect morale of an enemy. Fallout 3 was a step in the right direction where enemies would go 'screw this ...' but expanding on it further and bandits should be cowering behind their shrubberies when someone came along that was (in)famous and known in these lands of myths and legends to commoner and king alike

One problem with this Milt. :whisper: Rats did not scale in oblivion. They were and remained level one creatures despite still seeing them though out the game.

Indeed (though replace rats with something like slaughterfish, which did level).

I think perversely this type of level scaling actually made Oblivion harder for "casual gamers" (who I presume were supposed to benefit from it). The guy I share an apartment with played a game of Oblivion as a whim, didn't care/pay any attention to the levelling aspect really and then found out when he hit the higher levels that it was almost impossible to kill anything because he hadn't levelled up the right attributes/skills. He was getting destroyed by everything he ran into and eventually just gave up, cursing the day I'd ever suggested it to him.

That is the one good thing about Oblivion is if you were lazy and just level grinded you were screwed unless you feel like spending the next 100 hours exploring Robbers Glen Cave.

I don't like level scaling as well.

Nope, I don't believe they leveled either. Level one. Lich, leveled though as did many higher level creatures. Many like skeletons did not level but there were different kinds like Gardians, champions,and such that were different levels. Same as MW had different level skeletons.

Bah!

They were still annoying when they came at me from a mile away constantly 'Skriekepiep, skriekepiep' and humping my Daedric armored leg.

Which reminds me: AGRO RESET!! Make enemies lose interest in you after they've chased you x amount of time/distance. Not have a rat tagging me and following me from Anvil to Leyawiin.

The only reason I said that is that I remember the Go Fish quest getting progressively harder depending on what your level was. As far as I remember they were "spawn" at the first level and got bigger/more mature the higher the level you were.

Although Liches in Oblivion weren't seen until around Level 18.

Well, level scaling in terms of quest rewards is a decent idea. That way, you can do whatever quest in whatever order and still start off with mediocre stuff and get better. Of course, the alternative would be make some quests damn impossible to do until you get far enough along, and thus their loot will be perfect according to the level you have to be. It would have to be crafted delicately to a) maintain the open-world, do-whatever feel but B) guide the player along so they progress properly and complete quests at a level-appropriate time to get level-appropriate loot.

Oblivion failed miserably with their level scaling, as enemies seemed to get stronger faster than you did. Later on, if you chose to be a sword and shield warrior type, you were just trading blows back and forth forever against most enemies. Combat was my least favorite part of Oblivion for sure.

I for one support morrowinds style of leveling.

[censored] oblivion lvl 30 rats.

Except Oblivion never had Lv 30 Rats those guys maxed at Lv 2

The skill points need to be revamped, Oblivion gave you no freedom, and most monsters should have maxes in skyrim

I voted yes, however that is because it was nearest to my opinion not what i actually think, you should have more options there my lad

My vote would go nearer Fallout 3's leveling style

as you enter an area the levels of things around you are set(and can still level if they just happen to be maxxing their training or protecting the village from stuff)

that way, you will enter an area and everything will be appropriately challenging, but when you come back many a levels later you will outright win, proving you've made yourself some progress and not completing the entire game at level 2 because you can

I also think certain areas should plain have a minimum level so you don't go level 1 scouting around and enjoy hilariously low level end game.

although i think something should be done to ensure combat in-effective players still have a chance (ie, someone's maxed alteration, acrobatics, ect and not actually got anything remotely damaging)