Beginning note:
I know there are many on the forum that’ll probably disagree with me and view this topic differently than me. As with all clashes of opinion, this topic has a chance to burst into a massive flame-war, which is definitely unwanted. Thus, it would be much appreciated if everyone discussing this topic would take extra care to weed-out their posts from any unnecessary comments of personal nature. Now, on to the topic:

Elder Scrolls is an RPG series, where the player can choose quite a lot of things their character can do and specialize in. Such is the case with Skyrim. However, no matter how grand the games are, they will never be able to allow everything players can come up with. Some things could've been added, but simply weren't. That these features do not exist, but are still played as if they do exist (by some, not all), is the point of this thread.
This topic explained in one sentence:
"When does Roleplaying become pretending?"

A couple of things are instantly unclear with this sentence, so allow me to expand upon this a bit.
Roleplaying is an easy enough word to explain, but it does have a few different meanings, depending who you ask. The very basic of it is that you take on the role of something, and play your game according to that role. Such a Roleplaying could, for example, be an assassin. You are roleplaying an assassin, who works for the dark brotherhood and sneaks around in the shadows, stabbing people in the back. But what I quite often read on the forums is a different use of the word Roleplaying. For example, "I Roleplay that my character must eat, drink and sleep, otherwise he/she'll die." or "I Roleplay that my character doesn't know dragon-language and is unable to draw knowledge from word-walls."

In both of these cases, the word "Roleplay" can be swapped out to "Pretend", without the meaning behind the sentence changing (much at all?). "I pretend that my character must eat, drink and sleep, otherwise he/she'll die." and "I pretend that my character doesn't know dragon-language and is unable to draw knowledge from word-walls."
In my opinion, it doesn't matter which way you say them, it means the same thing: You play your game in a way that adds un-addable features to it, or removes un-removable features from it. For example, the game will never force the player to feed or drink in order to survive. Adding a non-existing need to do so is to add something un-addable to the game, for it wasn't truly added. Or in the case of word-walls and the dragonborn issue, you remove something that cannot be removed. The game will always make you drain knowledge from the word-walls, but you can remove this un-removable feature by roleplaying / pretending your way past it. I'm not sure if I'm clear here, or if you need to be on a skooma-high to understand my train-of-thought here, but that's as good as I can explain it right now. Before you say, "Mods add that, remove that", keep in mind that they aren't part of the main game and thus have no true value in this discussion.

What I'm trying to say is this: The word "Roleplaying" is thrown about quite a lot it seems, usually when it comes to adding or removing un-addable or un-removable features to or from the game. For example, the game doesn't force me to carry just one weapon, but I can Roleplay that I can carry just one weapon. It does, after all, add some realism to the game, right? But isn't, once again, the word "Roleplaying" used as a fancy way of saying "Pretend"?
So, in your opinion, when does Roleplaying become pretending? And more importantly, is such pretending (roleplaying) part of RPG's? Do these invisible Roleplaying-rules help make the game better? How much "Roleplaying" modifications to a player's game can an RPG allow, before it loses the RPG status?

To me, RPG's should by themselves allow us to do these things. We shouldn't have to "Roleplay" (pretend) something we want to be or see, it should be a clear part of the game. For example, I want to be a guard. But oh... I... can't? Well, no worries, I'll just "Roleplay" (pretend) that I'm a guard by wearing their armor!
Such a solution is, imo, not an RPG solution. I'd barely call that a solution at all. But as I said earlier, games cannot possibly allow the players to do and be everything, meaning there will always be the need for some pretending and adding un-addable features to the games. That's just the way it is. But, just how huge features should the player have to pretend?

End note:
I'm trying to talk about the fine line between Roleplaying and Pretending, and just how much pretending you can accept before feeling a bit silly, or perhaps confused. Pretending that I had to eat, drink and sleep was one of the hardest things I've ever tried, which I tried in Oblivion and Skyrim. Neither times did it work well for me. It doesn't stop at the eating and drinking for me though. Luckily, there are mods that add eating and drinking to Skyrim. With these mods, I can play with the need to eat/drink/sleep without feeling strange! But, those aren't part of the main-game, nor are they part of the Roleplaying / Pretending discussion.




What features do you add to your game through Roleplaying/Pretending? How huge things do you feel comfortable to add to your game? Your opinions and views on the topic as a whole?

I understand what you are tyring to say my friend.

For me, I roleplay my background and would like for the game to help out with that instead of entirely roleplaying it...minor yes I know.

Another is the last two builds I played a mage and used all magery skills except destruction. It would help if I could actually make my own spells but I can only hope that a dlc will include that one day (console user )

Roleplaying, to me, implies meaningful interactions with a gameworld that are unique to my character based on who they are. For instance, let's say I make a character who is strong, dumb, and evil...

Pretending: When interacting with the gameworld, there's nothing to show that my character is physically stronger than any other character, but I still imagine them as a strong brute. When they interact with NPCs, they have the same dialogue options as anyone else, despite their low intelligence. And if they go around killing people in a certain area, the NPCs act like nothing happened when I return to the same area at a later date.

Roleplaying: The game allows my character to move a boulder out of the way which another, weaker character cannot. My character cannot learn languages a more intelligent character could master. My character has simpler dialogue options than an intelligent character. If my character kills someone in a village, they earn a sinister reputation among the NPCs.

Roleplay and Pretend are the same thing, you're pretending to be someone else, essentially playing another role. No matter how far you take your roleplay, you're still pretending.

This is interesting. To me, an RPG on the first level is the usual thief/warrior/mage play-styles i.e. taking a role. The second level of an RPG (to me) is for the world itself to react and adapt accordingly. RPing with the imagination is good to an extent, but a players' imagination only goes so far.

I don't worry about semantics. I play the game the way I play the game, and let others use the terms they're most comfortable with.

This
Not this.

I can see your point. Pretending could also be synonymous with, what we roleplayers might call 'Light Roleplay'. However, if it weren't for these roleplay elements, these sorts of games (RPGs) wouldn't have nearly the same fun factor for me.

I will admit that some of the more hardcoe among us go a bit overboard for my tastes. For instance, I don't 'walk' everywhere like some people. I just don't have the patience. Sure I walk sometimes, if it adds to my mood (towns, shops, dungeons). I use fast travel. I don't sleep or eat every day (although I will sometimes when I just get tired of cave exploring and sit around town).

My roleplay elements that I like to put in are fairly simple: Characters with different attitudes or purpose. The fellow who calls one a milk drinker may get an angry look, a shrug, or get his face smashed in - consequences be damned. Sometimes I'll hunt books with a character. Or riches. One may only go around picking herbs and testing potions. My mood at the time I get to play determines which one I load up. They each have their own little niches that I get some type of enjoyment from.

I use specific armor (regardless of stats) for people. Sometimes I'll only use a certain weapon because of some back story. Little things.

One example I can think of is one of the quests in Markath (No Spoilers). One guy fought his way out of it. One went along with it. Another didn't even bother because it didn't concern him in the least.

Well, I don't know exactly what you're trying to say here. It seems that you're trying to convey a few different messages in the same post. Let's see if I get it right....

1) Roleplaying = playing "in character"... making choices depending on what kind of person your character is, and not what's most powerful/easiest etc. But imagining things that don't exist in the game, such as having to eat and sleep = not roleplaying. You'd rather call it pretending.

I understand your reasoning very well, but I can also see how the word has evolved towards this. Roleplaying IRL involves a lot of imagination; you basically pretend that you're another person, and act as if that person's life was real. So if you imagine that you are this Skyrim character, your imagination may also involve being hungry, cold etc. or you may have to imagine things that don't exist in-game because the in-game content don't always allow you to make the most likely choices for your character. So in other words, roleplaying and imagination overlap, and sometimes you might have to pretend in order to play a certain role.

2) You think that an RPG should be made so that you have to pretend as little as possible, while still being a well functioning game. I agree with that... and sometimes such a goal could actually make the game less complicated, by making it more open. Realism on the other hand can complicate things and make the game less playable, so while some realism and restrictions are great, too much would ruin it. Personally, I think Oblivion's classes and birthsigns (with the option to create a custom class) are better than Skyrim's "everyone can be master of everything", but Oblivion's attributes are too complicated; "ok, my willpower is being drained; what the *** did the willpower do again; never mind, I keep slashing at that enemy and hope he dies before I do." Skyrim's perks is an easier way to customize your character's skills. But that's just my own opinion. Others want the attributes back.

3) You think it feels weird to pretend things that don't exist in the game, but admits we have to pretend a little, because creating a game that suits everybody's personal preferences would be impossible.

4) You want to know how much pretending we're ok with.

Personally, I don't need and don't want hunger, cold etc. mods as I think it would complicate things, but I still pretend I get hungry, cold and so forth. There is food in the game. I can eat it. But it feels weird to pretend other things, such as not being Dragonborn and not having been at Helgen. My alternate start mod fixes that for me. I'd say it's easier for my imagination to add than subtract...

I pretend that I am roleplaying.

Given ths state of Skyrim (limited dialogue options, even more limited dialogue variation, very limited differences in outcome, frequent railroading of actions) it's what we are left with. Don't get me wrong, the game is fun, but there have been times when I have had no other choice but to say or do something completely out of character ... and then I start pretending.

To me roleplaying means making some attempt to stay in character. If your character is a sword-wielding warrior then you don't go join the Mages Guild just because the game allows you to, ditto the Companions of you're playing a mage. If your character is supposed to be a good and noble sort then you don't go and bash someone's face in unprovoked, even if they are the owner of a really cool pair of boots you'd love your character to have. You can roleplay within the confines of the game just by picking appropriate dialogue options and quests, and not doing things completely at odds with the persona you thought up for your character.

What you think of as pretending I would still call roleplaying, but taken to a higher level, one where you impose limits on yourself or change the way the story works in your head in order that it better fit your character concept. That's not to say that "pretending" isn't an also an accurate way to describe it though, although it's not one I'd use as it sort of feels like it has negative connotations to me.

It's all in the context, because a LOT of role-playing is Theater Of The Mind. You have to fill in the gaps where the Game doesn't cover, which is half the fun.

Pretending: Taking your clothes off before you go to bed, and putting them back on from your inventory when you get up.
Role-Playing: Going to your wardrobe to put your clothes away before going to bed, and going back to said wardrobe in the morning to dress, preferably after hitting the wash basin to get the sleep out of your eyes.

Pretending: Pulling food out of your inventory that's been there for days and claiming you're fulfilling your bodily needs.
Role-Playing: Trying to cook for yourself, but dammit, you're always out of salt!

Only for this point I am bringing up PC and Modding for a similiar point; PC's usually help with the Role Playing aspect's that arent added(Basic Needs and the such). However I agree with the OP because when we roleplay we do so with Quests and Classes. A Thief would never join a Combat based guild. He/she may, however, think of an Assassin Guild for the use of Stealth.

Role Play is very different from Pretending in that Role Play helps keep the "flow" thats already in the game. Basically I mean that its easier to RP your character than pretend you dont require something or you need something that is normally useless.

I agree there is a difference. I wish there were more in the game to support roleplaying. I do some roleplaying but I do a lot more pretending in Skyrim. I wish I could do more roleplaying.

To answer the OP's questions about what I pretend and call roleplaying, its a long list, but I will give one example. When I get a quest from an NPC, I go into my journal, activate the quest, search the map for the location of the quest marker and then pretend that the NPC told me that's where I need to go, along with some simple backstory why I need to go there. Then I make a mental note of the location on the map with the magical quest arrow on it and where it is and I shut off the quest arrow. Then I do the quest. I could call that roleplaying, but the part where I have to turn the quest arrow on and imagine I was given directions to go there is pure pretending.

First off, Good Topic! and well written.

• [When] does Roleplaying become pretending?

For me, there is no distinction between Role Playing and Pretending. If there is, then its a thin line for me. I see it as a fancy term used by advlt-children as an excuse to dress up in silly or odd costumes and parade around or play fight. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that...especially when "well formed women" join in the fun! I participate myself to some degree. On a side note I would include "reenactment" with this group. While they're recreating a historical event, it's basically an excuse for grown men to dress up and play war like they did when they were 10. But back to these questions;

• [Is] such pretending (roleplaying) part of RPG's?

I do think that pretending/roleplaying as you've defined it is inherently part of Role Playing Games, regardless of which RPG / activity.

• Do these invisible Roleplaying-rules help make the game better?

They do help to make the game better. To what degree of "better" is completely up to the participant. Its much like watching a fantasy/sci-fi movie or reading such a book. It all depends on how far your willing to "buy into" that particular fantasy and make it real for you. Such is the case with Skyrim.

• How much "Roleplaying" modifications to a player's game can an RPG allow, before it loses the RPG status?

How much is too much? I would think that it all depends on the balance of the player and the game developed. How much freedom is the developer going to allow the player? How much is the developer willing to promote or reward "original" problem solving? The questions can go on and on, but my point is that I don't think you can ever RP (as you've defined it) too much within an RPG. However there does need to be a certain balance maintained. Too much restriction on behalf of the developer and you suddenly go from RPG to Adventure or FPS. Too much freedom and basically undermine the game itself...and possibly any entertainment potential.

...but then those are just my 2 septims

[Edit] Corrected some errors and removed a bit about mods. On my second review I found my argument didn't really belong...thus it got AXED!

Roleplaying is pretending.

Nice topic man, I get what you're saying.

I generally think of the difference being:

NOT ROLE-PLAYING: simply playing the game to do s**t, level up, loot, & finish quests ------ (the bare bones of the game's core mechanics)

ACTUALLY ROLE-PLAYING: using the means presented by the game to create a believable and relatable (not necessarily) character who deeply interacts with the world (ie, isn't just a sword swinging machine that kills things and checks off quests like a to-do list)

The difference between ROLE-PLAYING and PRETENDING is like the difference between AWAKE and NOT ASLEEP.
I don't see why the distinction needs to be made. All that really changes is different people's interpretations of THE DEGREE of role-playing.

Roleplaying is pretending, but pretending alone does not make a game an RPG. An RPG needs game mechanics to make interactions between the player-character and the gameworld meaningful and unique.

You can pretend that a character needs to eat and sleep, but unless you stop adventuring to use the game mechanics to eat and sleep (and perhaps nerf yourself by unequipping weapons/armor until you've done so), then you're not really roleplaying it.
The game mechanics allow me to roleplay the type of companions I choose, but any relationship my character has with them is just pretend (since no deep dialogue options exist).Also this.

I can see the distinction, but it's mostly semantic. In any "Role-Playing Game" (and that term is used quite broadly in many cases), there is an expectation that you pretend to be your character. Many avoid this, as is their right, and their "character" is simply a mobile enemy and loot processing platform. Many go to the other extreme and use their character as a basis for an extended fantasy involving backstory, motivations, likes and dislike (separate from the player's own) etc. sometimes branching into art and fiction of various quality.

There is no right and wrong of it.

This^. Which is something Skyrim lacks unfortunately.

Roleplaying: Expanding on the game's content. The game might not say you're the Arch-Mage, you have to go and do this every day, but as a roleplayer I can acknowledge that my character would do that. Providing a personality, history and lifestyle for your character. The game might not say You like lavish clothing and expensive wine, but through bringing my character to life with a history and personality, I can tell that my character does.

Pretending: Making things up. For example, I'm a member of the Hunter's Guild in Riften is pretending, as there's no Hunter's Guild in Skyrim. You can easily be a hunter, but there is no guild for it. If you're making things up from scratch, you're pretending. Saying ny character ate spaghetti bolognaise when in fact they ate beef stew is pretending.

People can harp on about there's no roleplaying in Skyrim!!! Depth!!! Shallow!! all they like. But I roleplay, many others roleplay, and most of us don't care if you think we roleplay or pretend. What qualifies as roleplaying in Fallout doesn't qualify as roleplaying in The Elder Scrolls, and vice versa.

Yes.

No matter how hardcoe you Roleplay, you are still pretending. Just a much more involved and self delusional form of pretending.

To address the topic as a whole, what I call it doesn’t change what I’m doing. Whether I make Restore Fatigue potions so that I can pretend my character is cooking (in Oblivion) or actually cook food in Skyrim, I’m still imagining what they would like and pretending that they need to eat. I know that there are mods offering pop-up messages like “You begin to feel hunger,” but that is where I draw the line. I am engaged in my own character’s story because I am using my imagination and pretending that any of it matters. Otherwise it’s just pushing buttons on time because “You begin to feel hunger,” which is entertaining enough for many without having to pretend anything. Not for me.

More feedback from the game can be a bad thing. “Hands to yourself, sneak thief!” Really? It’s only good when the game gets it right.

I was just complaining about that on another thread. It's pretty jarring when my lawful good character hears a guard say that just because his sneak skill happened to inch above 30. That line should be reserved for characters who actually steal things.

I find that part of the challenge for RPG games: to see how the game reacts to your actions. That was more the case with games like Deus Ex, where even smaller actions could result in some interesting comments from other characters.