I know it's possible. Observe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT40EhYgy-g

If a F2P game can build a slick user friend interface for creating entire worlds within an MMO, having much less impressive player created content like housing doesn't seem unreasonable for an MMO coming out in 2013.

By the same token, Tera has (and the above link does as well) that realtime combat is full possible, even if the developers don't choose to make it from a first person perspective.

So, what gives? Is there some secret sauce TESO has to compete in the innovative department with other stuff coming out next year/later this year? Like Dust 514 (MMOFPS integrated into the Eve universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo

Then you have stuff like Pathfinder Online that is going full out fantasy sandbox, but isn't pushing gameplay boundaries: https://goblinworks.com/blog/

These, not the MMO's out right now, will be the primary competitors for TESO. GW2 will have already captured the theme park PvP crowd. So, what aside from the lore will set TESO apart? We haven't seen anything yet, but as many have pointed out, there is only one article out so far. Perhaps there is some secret super innovative detail that will make it stand against these other 2013 projects. Speculation, thoughts?

Otherland's world making only works because all the worlds are separate "servers" in the context of the game's universe, same with Star Trek Online's foundry missions having them all take place on other "planets" within the context of the game's universe, in reality they are just separate instances.

The only way for a MMO to have world building, and it make sense, is if everything is on another planet or something.

Within the context of ES it really wouldn't make sense, the universe isn't set up in a way that allows for such instates, and there's no real explanation at to where these things would go in the game world.

The only way to put it in would require some major lore destroying.

Yeah, except you can have alot of other people there, so you could set up your own fantasy sandbox if you wanted, for yourself and a few hundred of your closest friends. Since can make it public. Eve's "single server" is in fact, alot of servers, where each system is represented by a server cluster. It works for Eve, even in systems like Jita that can have sometimes thousands of players in the same area. Super large fights are laggy, but then, fights with 30 people are laggy in SWTOR with standard combat (Eve-like).

Then you have Blade and Soul, that should be out and being pushed hard around the time this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvRh3PvrRWk

It's been in development forever. I managed to play the CB a bit thanks to a Korean friend, it's hotkey based but doesn't play like WoW at all, more like a slower paced fighting game, it has faction based PvP but you opt into your faction, it's not set at character creation.. So, I'm wondering what the secret is here in TESO, not at this point as a TES fan, but as someone who keeps an eye on up and coming MMO's in the wait for something to break the mold. There has to be SOMETHING because they are smart enough to know they are competing against all this stuff, and there is no way that something is just TES lore.

That's completely irrelevant to the point I made.... I'm not sure what point you were trying with it, nor does that doesn't solve the problem of the ES universe's lack of a logical reason for their existence or were to put them.

Also EVE is a space game...... it works because it is in space, much like Star Trek online.

Space is infinite, Tamriel is not.

I played a F2P game called Aika online that had massive (over 500 player) battles with the standard hotkey based system and didn't lag at all. It was very impressive technically, but far too much of a confusing zerg-fest to actually be very fun. So, I think it more goes back to the engine. I also remember multi-hundred player fights in Planetside, and that was an FPS. In SWTOR I lagged with 40 people on screen, but supposedly they have an old junky version of the hero engine. Another game I'm following, Dominus, is built around 3-faction PvP and has been stress testing with much larger numbers of people (400+) involved in single battlefields. It's also the hero engine, so that may alleviate some people's fears that the engine itself is the thing preventing larger battles, it's more of a design decision I think.

How does that have anything to do with sandbox world building?

Your not making much sense.

Sandbox PvP is PvP that isn't limited by a set of rules like say, a "Battleground", or "Arena" that makes it fair. In DAoC this took the form of massive relic raids that had hundreds of people and sometimes crashed the server (remember this was 2000ish). They announced that the throne of the empire is capturable, but seemed to indicate it was just another battleground with a 100 player on each side limit, similar to GW2. Since that's more of a theme-park take on PvP, I am wondering if they have some sandbox styled world PvP up their sleeve they haven't revealed yet.

If you can't build houses, can you build fortifications within the 100v100v100 battleground? What stuff is there that would compel someone to play TESO over the massive amount of crap coming out next year, including possibly World of Darkness, which will be a realtime sandbox in the Vampire: The Masquerade universe, using a single server (yeah, it's those crazy CCP guys again).

And like I pointed out....... there's no logical explanation for were these sandbox made PVP maps would exist.

because they like the TES universe? theres a reason sandbox mmos are considered niche.

TES fans are the kinds of people that want to love sandbox MMO's and haven't had a good one to play in forever. The last triple-A sandbox MMO (Ultima Online) established an entire genre. Yes, the very first MMO in existence let you make your own house and stuff...

Are TES fans so desprite for a sandbox MMO that they would be willing to accept the massive destruction of lore it would take to explain where these things are?

Many newer MMO's are trying to meld sandbox and theme park together to appeal to everyone. I'm hoping the secret thing to make this compelling is something like another continent or daedric plane with zero lore being a true sandbox area. Although with them saying they don't know how to do player housing this seems a bit unlikely, one can dream.

And all of them do it through logical in-game universe explanations.

Star Trek Online puts user made missions on other "planets"
Otherlands put user made level on other "servers"
EVE puts them in other "solar systems"

The Elder Scrolls Universe isn't set up in a way to allow for that, there is no place in the lore for them to exist, creating another continent or Daedric plane doesn't make much sense.


Also they said player housing AS PEOPLE WANT IT, is impossible, not player housing in general, there is a very large difference.

im a TES fan. not a fan of sandboxes. that said player housing and such is not exclusive to those.

If they can let arselord58 be the emperor of Tamriel and argonians are hugging their dunmer friends right after they pry the slave collars off; I'm not seeing alot of lore issues with letting players create and destroy in parts of the game world set aside for it.

Why would they have to exist separately?

Why not make all of them sandbox pvp?

But that is the problem.............. there are no places on the world map that could logically be used for that.

Also the Dunmer/Argonian alliance, and the Emperor thing, are both explainable in lore, these PVP sandbox areas, however, are not.

So are player settlements that got destroyed at the end of a period of time so shrouded in the past that nobody remembers Emperor Arselord58 the 2nd.

And that is again ignoring the fact there isn't a place on the map that could be logically used for that.

Nor does that combat the situation that ultima online fell into, aka the settlements grow so large they cover the entire world.

There are many mechanisms to get around that, and you know it. Why so obstinate, is a static theme park Tamriel the one of your dreams?

Unfortunately, TES games aren't about daedric planes or other continents(like Akavir), its about Tamriel. Even TES: Oblivion was about Tamriel. Alll Elderscrolls games will feature Tamriel as the main setting. Personally, I don't even want a full on sandbox for a TES MMO. It has to be a hybrid, because I'm going to need the story and background that only a non-sandbox game features can really provide. As far as PvP and crafting goes though, sandbox FTW, and IMO this games is leaning in that direction already.

It isn't..... you just haven't provided a means to implement it a way that

1. fits into lore
2. doesn't end up covering the entire world in user made stuff
3. doesn't limit the feature to something that only the really rich/powerful players get to use

If you make it work within those three limits i'll be open to it.

How is it impossible?

Let's run some numbers: If every of (roughly) 10 million WoW players claimed a spot for them in "Daggerfall Online" (using the same map as the real Daggerfall, Wikipedia says 487000 km², so let's go with that), that would be on average sqrt(487000/10000000) = 0.22 km between each house. That's 10 million players on a single server, and obviously some areas would be more crowded than others, so you'd have lots of places where there is maybe a single house or a small player-run town with wilderness for kilometres around it.

Ah, you don't know then. There you can look at upcoming games like Archelord, or GW2, or FFXI, or well...take your pick. I can think of a few dozen off my head that have housing. Most of the ones after Ultima Online went the upkeep route. Others like Archelord are going upkeep + sub. Ergo, your properly will fall into disrepair and disappear if you don't constantly do upkeep on it and/or if you are no longer subscribed. Eve has never had a problem with direlict stations or anything, because if something is left undefended it will be taken over/destroyed by active players. Same as in Mortal Online, and Darkfall.

I agree some theme park elements are very nice to have, however, once you burn through them unless you loves them lootcakes it's over, old and stale. By the same token limited scenario based PvP gets pretty old pretty fast, since it's always more or less the same fight.


I was always thinking if there ever was a TES MMO it would borrow many ideas from Daggerfall, and have huge procedurally generated areas and dungeons using modern instead of 1996 tech. This possibility has not yet been ruled out. Old school fans remember going to sleep running west, and still be running west when you woke up.

The map probably is neither that big or as empty...... so your entire argument falls apart there


And again all of those games have reason IN LORE as to where this content exists in.

You have yet to provide one for ES.