Fellow Dovahkins, I am at point in Main Quest just after I talked to the Jarl and before I speak to General Tullius to set up negotiations. I am in the Jarl's palace and one of his guys is asking me to swear an oath to the Stormcloaks.

Knowing Skyrim as I do , this will have irrevocable consequences for the rest of the game.

Should I do it ?

Do you relate more to racist mountain folk or spineless worms?

You actually can switch sides if you want during a certain quest in the Civil War:


As for myself, I've never been able to get behind the Stormcloaks because I don't support Ulfric and the Jarls he chooses to put in charge of the holds are terrible.

Its your game your choice, but me personally I would join the Stormcloaks but I do this because I hate the arrogant Thalmor. (And don't forgot who was going give you a rather close shave)

Does your character believe in the Stormcloak cause? -- > yes

If not, leave it.

There are some consequences but it's not like areas of the game will be cut off to you or anything.

Forgive me, I really don't mean to crap your thread but it seems that this question is akin to asking: "Should I put my trousers on left leg first, or right leg first?"
What do YOU/YOUR CHARACTER want to do?
It's your game, why not try it and see - what side is there a kinship to? Do you even want to join a side?

yup , its your own choice , and its not like you can never speak to the empire after that.


anyway , i fear an "iron curtain"( ;D ) is falling over southern tamriel , will you join forces with the american war-hero ulfric to battle commun- i mean the thalmore.

he he he my little joke my friend , the truth of it is , we DO NOT KNOW ALL THE INS -AND OUTS- OF THE THALMORE REGIME , for all we know they may provide free healthcare , education and welfare services, if they are communists...well then they will......anyway you need to know both sides of every story to make a judgemnt, so its your choice if you join ulfric, i genuinly belive he is just a bit of a facist extreme nationlist , he has pride in his nation (skyrim) and wants to boot out all of the invaders ( both the empire and the thalmore)

just think about it , how would you , lets assume your american , country was invaded by the french , you would want to join the person fighting them to gain inderpendance in your country wouldnt you? well i would in any case....

Thanks for the advice, I'm a Brit. We fight everyone.

The stormcloak aren't racists. Where do you get the notion that they are? Because of 2 nords in windhelm that harasses the dark elves? Mind you that they're not stormcloaks. They're just 2 regular citizens.

Last I checked Ulfric Stormcloak was the Jarl of Windhelm. The same Jarl who forces the Dunmer to live in the squalor of the Grey quarter, who makes the "scale backs" live outside the city working at the docks and the Jarl who would just assume let a Khajiit caravan fall victim to sodomy by dragon before he'd lift a finger.

People will pretty much quote the "no reinforcements for non-nords" thing. Honestly, you can't make people see what they don't want to see. If you can, wars would've been VERY short

By the way....

@crimsonlegend:
The Red Mountain erupted at 4E5. Unless Ulfric Stormcloak is even older than Arngeir, Dunmer has been living there for 2 centuries.

They've been segregated in one part of that city for two centuries?

Uh ... if you don't mind me asking, you do realize you don't have to do that to proceed with the main quest, do you? Swearing the oath means picking sides in the civil war, and that's a side quest (albeit a major one). Just to make sure ...

So true.
I'm a Brit, and I could quite happily get into a fight with myself, or a paper bag...

I think he means to say he is at the seasons unending quest where you set up the negotiations, but he is also up to the part in the civil war quest-line where he has been asked to swear the stormcloak oath.

as to the OP, the only consequences are which questline you do (they are both the same by the way, just reversed colours) and which jarls are in charge at the end, so it all really comes down to your characters roleplay.

I believe (don't quote me on this) it happened gradually, and the oppression and squalor that's set in only really happened under Ulfric's reign. His father, Hoag, was supposedly much kinder and more welcoming to the Dunmer (see: "Scourge of the Gray Quarter"). I think what Raestloz meant was that Dunmer have been living in Windhelm for far longer than Ulfric's been alive, which is true.

(Actually, as for the Gray Quarter itself...I suspect the sudden influx of a bunch of refugees from the Red Year had more of a hand in the segregation than Ulfric did. Refugees tend to stick together rather than disperse throughout a city, so the Dunmer migrating from Morrowind--at least initially--probably kept mainly to themselves. The problem crops up when, 200 years on, they're all still keeping to themselves and the Gray Quarter's turned into a proper slum under Ulfric's rule. Basically the segregation was there from the start, the trouble is Ulfric's content to keep it that way and just act as if the Dunmer in his city aren't his problem.)

Of course, it's a two way street--go read the book "Dunmer of Skyrim" sometime. There's some Dunmer who are just as racist against the Nords. The two races have been bitter enemies for a very long time prior to the eruption of Red Mountain; I believe the Nords even invaded northern Morrowind as recently as during or just after the Oblivion Crisis. There's more to this story than just "Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist facist."

As for "all Stormcloaks are racists"...meh. Blanket statement is a blanket statement. There's clearly some more accepting folks who ally with the Stormcloaks. Ralof and his family for one--they'll take you in regardless of your race. Wuunferth and Jorleif seem like decent folk, too.

...But then you've got folks like Galmar Stone-Fist (who's a jerk no matter what your race, but he goes out of his way to insult you if you're a Khajiit, for instance) and his relative Rolff Stone-Fist, who's the drunk that goes around harassing the Gray Quarter. They have the same last name, so I assume they're related anyway.

Another issue to consider is the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/decree-monument(The document which legitimized their exodus into skyrim) which basically says the Dunmer should be governing themselves and not be relying on the existing skryim government to solve all their problems.

Either that, or for two centuries they haven't made any effort to be welcomed by the Nords. They have 2 centuries, and an Aldmer managed to open a store right there at the main marketplace. An Aldmer. What have the Dunmers do? One managed to get a farm up and running, and employed a Nord. The others don't seem to do much.

I say it has less to do with Ulfric being racist and more with the Dunmer not doing anything about their situation. It is true that somebody in Windhelm (I forgot the name) claimed Ulfric doesn't send out reinforcements to non-Nords. Now, "Why didn't Ulfric send out reinforcements?" is a better question. I'll be honest and say that I don't know, but jumping the gun and saying "Ulfric is racist!" is not much better.

Especially when Windhelm have 2 Aldmers opening stores smackdab in the middle of the town. Since he's fighting Aldmeri Dominion, you would have thought "No Aldmers" would take priority over "Screw Dunmers"

Good catch--I'd forgotten about that one.


To play devil's advocate...the Altmer didn't migrate en masse to Skyrim as a result of a natural disaster and Argonian invasion that basically made two-thirds of their homeland completely inhospitable. They have a much smaller presence in Windhelm (and the surrounding Hold) and are making much fewer demands on the Jarl's resources, if they're making any at all.

A couple of Altmers, who have presumably been vetted to make sure they're not Thalmor spies, isn't a big deal. Hundreds or (more likely) even thousands of Dunmer pouring over the border with probably not a lot of supplies and settling in in the first good spots they find--in other words, the Rift and Eastmarch--is another. Even if they were quasi-invited by Skyrim's leaders at the time.

As for what the Dunmer have done...sure, some of them are probably content to sulk around and demand to be treated as honored guests in Skyrim or what have you. There's others who are certainly far more productive--starting independent farms and businesses, etc. However the implication I've always gotten from conversations overheard around Windhelm (stick around in the Stone Quarter market and listen to Brunwulf Free-Winter chat with Aval Atheron sometime) is that Ulfric's administration has severely limited what the Dunmer can do in Windhelm in terms of work. Probably as a passive-aggressive attempt to get them to leave the hold and get out of his hair.

It's too bad that I can't give you a rep because you explained things perfectly. This whole fallacy of Ulfric being a racist is quite old already.

I'm going to challenge the whole "The Dunmer not doing anything about their situation" idea. Every single Dunmer is employed in Windhelm, and in almost every part of society. You have a bard working in Candlehearth Hall, a nanny taking care of the Cruel-Sea child, one is managing the day to day of the Shatter-Shields' trading company, one running a general store, one running a meat stand, one working at a farm, and another owning his own farm. You also have the one running the Corner Club and his employee. There's not a single one of them that isn't working in some way, shape, or form, whether it be working for someone or being self-employed.

The Dunmer have made themselves an integral part of Windhelm's society, and have positions in just about every facet of society except the political body, but there are still some people who refuse to accept them. I know Rolff isn't part of the Stormcloak Administration, but he's brother to Ulfric's right hand man, and a reflection of Galmar. I think less of Galmar because he hasn't knocked some sense into his brother, who's running around spouting racial slurs to people who may not be marching on the front lines, but are helping on the home front, which is something they desperately need.

In short, I don't think it's fair to say that the Dunmer aren't doing anything to better their situation or to be accepted by the Nords. They're doing a lot to help the people of Windhelm.

Altmer. Not Aldmer. There are no more Aldmer.
The Aldmer evolved into the different -Mer races of Tamriel thousands of years ago. Altmer, Ayleid, Bosmer, Chimer->Dunmer, Dwemer, Falmer, Maormer, Orsimer.
Just like how the Nedes evolved into Nords, Bretons, and Imperials. The Redguards have no Nedic ancestry and originated from Yokuda, across the ocean to the west. There was also the Kothringi, the silver-skinned humans native to Tamriel.

It's called the Aldmeri Dominion because the Altmer want a return to Elven superiority over Tamriel. (And the destruction of all Humans and the possibility of Humans.)

It is not only a matter of financial situation. The dunmer may have jobs, but they simply complain about their position instead of trying to fit in better with the Nords. Like I said, they have 2 centuries. Assuming a child is born when a couple reaches 30, they have went through 6 generations of Nords. Each generation doesn't seem to improve their situation

Having played Morrowind, the fact that Dunmer would be stubborn and slow to adapt and "fit in" with Nord culture surprises me...not at all.

There's a lot of things to consider here: one, six generations of Nords, yes. Six generations of Dunmer? Hardly. I forget how long the mer lifespan is supposed to be in TES games (if it's ever been quantified), but...in 200 years, it's more likely that there's only been two or three generations of Dunmer at most. There might even be some (perhaps particularly elderly, but still) mer who still remember life in Morrowind or Vvardenfell before things really hit the fan.

That is not a recipe for social change.

Two centuries of living in Skyrim (give or take, since I believe the Red Year didn't happen until 4E 05, and the huge influx of refugees probably didn't hit until the Argonians invaded) is a much shorter span of time when you're a Dunmer as opposed to a Nord. Add in the past enmity between Nords and Dunmer, and how stubbornly traditional a lot of the Dunmer can be, and you've got a group of people who are still in "refugee" mode. They may be living in Skyrim but they're not of Skyrim; traditions and customs brought over from Morrowind are still going to be very much active in the social/cultural memory.

There's a few Dunmer in Windhelm who talk about going home, or how coming to Skyrim was a mistake. In human terms 200 years is more than enough time to adapt and assimilate into the culture of whatever country you've emigrated to. In mer terms...not so much. Give it a few more centuries and you might start to see more wholesale adaptation on the Dunmers' part. Maybe. They're a proud, stubborn people, so it might take a bit longer than that.