When you look at the big picture it seems as though neither faction is really better than the other, but when you look more closely, the Stormcloaks are the only really logical choice.

The greatest argument against the Stormcloaks is that by separating from the empire they will destroy any long term chance for fighting off the Thalmor. One must consider that by completely surrendering to the Thalmor, and ordering the Blades execution, and allowing the Thalmor complete control over its people and lands the empire is effectively a shell of its former glory and no longer itself. The empire has no plans at all for driving back the thalmor, and any resistance is ultimately only going to come from movements not backed by the emperor and his government. Skyrim can in the future ally with the empire if they really are so patriotic, but in all liklihood the empire will fight with the Thalmor against Skyrim and then who is the empire then really? They might as well be the Thalmor.

In the end, the Stormcloaks raciness is much more preferable to the Thalmor's heavy oppression and the empire's backing of such oppression. Thalmor abduct anyone who so much as looks at them wrong on a daily basis, torturing and/or killing them. The nords under Ulfric are known to treat non-nords unfairly, but you never hear about blind genocidal killings, only segregation and bullying.

Also, under the counsel of the Dragonborn, there is potential for Ulfric's views to become more sympathetic to non-nords.

I think it's worth asking if the Empire as it stands is worth saving. However,

It's nice how you assume that the Empire is suddenly Thalmor in all but name. The Empire is biding time. It's a cold war now. The Thalmor goading Ulfric into raising a fuss is evidence of that.

The Thalmor are only in Skyrim because the Stormcloaks rose a stink about Talos worship instead of just carrying on in secret like the Empire hoped they would. The Thalmor used Ulfric as an unwitting pawn to stir up crap to justify such a heavy crackdown presence in Skyrim.

The Thalmor told Ulfric to jump, and he predictably did. How else will he be predictable for the Thalmor?

The White Gold Concordact only bought an interbellum. Everyone knows it.

Donner: Ulfric is not a Thalmor agent. He is an unwitting pawn. They broke him when he was a POW, but he's not consciously on their side. Manipulable and predictable as evidenced by his Talos worshop crap-stirring, yes... but an actual Thalmor agent? No.

The wildcard that enables the Stormcloaks to win is not Ulfric, but a pro-Stormcloak Dragonborn. Ulfric is no wildcard, not by a long stretch. He can be relied upon to feel instead of think.

I am curious where you got that information. Either way, you have to consider that the Thalmor don't want him to gain power. This comes from a dossier you retrieve from the embassy.

Here we go again....

I don't like Ulfric. I haven't any use for the 'cloaks as a whole. Separatists are just.... not my thing. Do I think the empire is "better"? Not necessarily. But I DO think that Beth will always have the empire. And I do NOT think Beth will "continue" the 'cloaks, who after all are a totally Skyrim-dependent faction (in other words, they have no relevance at all in the rest of Tamriel).

But the bottom line really is whatever Beth chooses to do, whichever direction Beth chooses to jump.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

Only way for my PC is to join the Thalmors. And this is not available in the game so I chose the Season Unending way. You don't have to pick sides in this game.

I sense a bit of an attitude here.


No, the Thalmor are everywhere in the empire because they aren't stupid; they know people will worship in secret.

You have to consider the Thalmor don't want him to take skyrim. They simply want both sides to battle it out with no resolve. The conflict only benefits them if it continues and without a victor. This comes from a dossier you retrieve from the embassy.

Newly-formed nations are quite often weak with political and socio-economic troubles. *shrug*

Anyway, even if the Thalmor don't want Ulfric in power (although that same dossier does say they are preferable to the Empire), it'll ultimately serve them. More division means more weakness. Yes, the empire is weak, but a separate Skyrim won't really help anything get better. Besides, I tend to get the impression that the Stormcloaks aren't really the most-learned guys out there.

I must be the only person in the universe who doesn't believe that dossier.... I don't CARE that it's in a supposed Thalmor stronghold. They're likely as paranoid as I am - I wouldn't EVER leave real dossiers around like that, no matter how tight I figured the security was.

One more time: you should NEVER believe anything you read in books, documents, etc. in a TES game.

Correction: they don't want Ulfric to gain power because that means an end to the Civil War. The longer that goes on, the more the Thalmore gain- the Empire becomes weaker, and the Nords loose people.

Anyway, siding with the Stormcloaks would probably do more to reinforce the Thalmor prescence than siding with the Empire- lacking the resources of the Empire, the stormcloaks would be easier prey for the Thalmor to take control over. Especially if they make an offensive within a year or two after the civil war, before Ulfric has a chance to truly unify Skyrim and replace his lost troops.

Likewise. To say the "only logical solution" is the stormcloaks is presumptuous; there are as many arguments in favor of the Empire; Logistical backbone of Skyrim between High Rock and Cyrodiil, iron and timber supplies from Skyrim, and plus it seems that skyrim has some external food dependencies as well.



Why is it then that it's portrayed like teh crackdown is a recent thing? Alvor says no one really thought of the WGC back then, and that Ulfric's recent rabble rousing is the prime cause of the Thalmor crackdown. No rebellion for a cause to crack down means they forment more animosity than they already do with a weaker reason of "There may be closet worshippers", and the ongoing war means they have bigger concerns on their mind than lynching a Thalmor inquisitor.



They want to take Skyrim. They want to take Cyrodiil. They want to take High Rock. they want to take the whole bloody continent. And then they want to erase it all from existence. If they weren't planning to invade, why would they be trying to weaken the Empire with cold war antics? Listen to any goldenrod jackboot; they basically act like they rule it all already.

Ulfric did not tip the scales in the Stormcloaks' favor, he was still jumping just as the Thalmor told him to. A pro-Stormcloak Dragonborn tips the scales.

Ah, so thats the "spoiler". Hardly a spoiler at all, considering how early you get it in the main quest. Obviously if anyone doesnt wish to see this then they shouldnt read it.



I feel like it's very vague. What does "asset" mean? You could interpret that as a few different things.

They broke his spirit by telling him he was responsible for the capture of cyrodil to bend his mind to their side, but what they used him for as an "asset" is vaguely described.


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Im not really sure what to make of all this. Ulfric obviously has no love for the Thalmor according to his actions and words unless he's been administering some autosuggestion to himself.

I really don't know what to think, but I don't think Ulfric could be considered an asset to the Thalmor anymore as they explicitly said they did not want him winning skyrim, yet he does.

I seriously doubt skyrim is the only place being "inquisited" or that it is only now having it happen. I don't think the Thalmor would step in only because a rebellion was taking place, I mean of course like you said they have the advantage of the war distracting people but it goes without saying. As far as Alvor saying something about WGC (what is WGC?) not being as bad as it was before I guess you have a point there.

Im not sure what you're trying to say.

Now this is where I facepalm at you're logic. Ulfric, being the leader of the stormcloaks, could have at any time made purposefully bad decisions, plotted against the dragonborn, etc. He seems very happy with his victory over the empire at the end. Now, if what you're saying is that Ulfric plans to screw over his people from there, that's another story.

They also said they don't want the imerials to win either.
The Civil war is good for their cause, because it bleeds the Empire and Skyrim of resources, which could have otherwise be used against them.

The Stormcloaks are just a tool of the Thalmor, I hate Thalmor so anything that benefits them is a good enough reason to quell this rebellion.

I've posted explanations time and time again, so sorry if this is a bit breif, but the only time I'd ever join the Stormcloaks is if I were a Nord, and even then I have decent reason to join the Empire. If I were Nord, I'd rather stand up for what my ancestors have worked so hard to achieve than submit to a corrupt empire. "Peace treaty" is colloquialism for "surender"

For the record, even though I like the Empire more I believe the real best choice is to just make Ulfric and Tullius get over themselves and sign the peace treaty.

The Thalmor have been systematically dividing the Empire for years. Why did the Thalmor demanded southern portions of Hammerfell during the treaty? Because if the Emperor accepted Hammerfell would secede from the Empire. The banning of the worship of Talos I think is more political then religious. Ulfric's rebellion NEVER would have happened if the treaty between the Dominion and the Empire didn't ban the worship of Talos.

Skyrim is the provience where Talos holds the most importance. I recall an NPC saying people used to be able to worship Talos secretly much more easily until Ulfric started making waves. Ulfric has forgotten that the enemy is the Thalmor and the moment.

Of course they'd step up because the war is taking place, all the stormcloaks are openly worship Talos. The Thalmor aren't allowed to break into peoples houses(evident by them hiring you to do it). So the war provides them ample opportunity to stir up trouble and arrest Talos worshipers deeping the conflict between the Empire and the rebels.

Ulfrics entire rebellion is pointless, all of his issues would be resolved when war eventually breaks out between the Dominion and the Empire again.

Imma just make this clear here and now, ulfric isn't currently, or at any point, working with/for the thalmor, an Asset doesn't mean agent, if he were an agent they would want him to win the civil war, because then they would have control over skyrim and a weakened empire, but he isn't n agent, he is an ASSET.

what they mean by asset is that he is benefiting them in such a way that losing him completely would be against their overall goals, because he is so volatile and likely to turn against the empire they saw an opportunity, so they push the situation to the point where he starts weakening the empire form the inside out, and as long as the civil war goes on he is a valuable asset to them. that's why they don't want either side to win, if the stormcloaks win than their asset becomes their enemy and the empire are no longer pre-occupied with a civil-dispute, if the empire win than they gain all the strengths associated with owning skyrim as well as no longer having to fight a second battle.

I don't know why everybody keeps reading it as "agent" and assuming ulfric works directly for the thalmor.