Yes, I finally 'broke down,' installed Steam, and played through a few hours with a characer that died a couple times. I prefer to play dead-is-dead characters and of course knowing how lethal a game is is never easy until you've had a character die a few times.

So I'm thinking up my new character to treat as a more serious keep him alive toon. I lean toward magic and love the idea of battlemages but always found them to be rather 'awkward' in Oblivion, what with the reduced magic power from armor rating.

I just noticed this on the Skyrim wiki:

In Skyrim, magic is not affected by Armor Rating.

Whoa! Really!? So you can be a FULL set of heavy armor AND suffer no penalties to magic use!?

I realize that the various robes available in the game provide useful magical boosts but . . . sounds like you can fairly easily disenchant and reenchant those effects into an actual armor piece, and apart from the weight and stealth costs, why not!?

Seems like Skyrim is a perfect game for a battlemage or spellsword type toon.

Maybe, if you don't mind a terrible magic system.

It isn't that bad at all.

Terrible how? Seems like a very nice magic system to me. Sure I kinda miss hotkeys from Oblivion, but to be honest, most of the changes seem to have improved magic:

1. Many of the spells in Oblivion were next to useless
2. Being able to cast with anything in your hand was a bit 'unrealistic'
3. Dual casting is actually more than just a gimicky-graphical thing, it is actually a kind've neat tactical character development thing and in terms of gameplay I find it quite satisfying
4. Spellmaking altar was frankly overpowered in Oblivion.

Except for the loss of hotkeys, and the fact I haven't yet figured out how the "favorites" function really works, I would have to say at this point that Magic in Skyrim actually seems BETTER than in Oblivion overall.

Actually I was just thinking though . . . if you are gonna be a battlemage, that is gonna involve either: (a) no shield and cast only with left hand; ( switching the hands from spells to weapons/shields often; or © just wearing armor and foregoing weapon and shield, which seems kinda silly. Hmmmm, not sure what sort of toon I want to do now.

BTW, would it be worth getting Dawnguard with only 10 or 15 hours of play time under my belt, or should I wait till later?

Compared to the past games in the series, and more recent RPG contemporaries, it's awful.

Wow, I don't think so. Can you be more specific? "Terrible," and "awful" are pretty generic. I actually like the magic system in Skyrim. In all honesty it isn't THAT different from Oblivion. Major differences would seem to be:

1. You need hands free to cast spells; before playing it, that seemed like an unnecessary constraint but now that I've played the game a bit, I think it is an improvement. Given the game clearly implies that spell casting involves hand gestures the idea of being able to cast in Oblivion even with both hands busy seems like a breach of game realism in hindsight.

2. You buy "tomes" to learn spells instead of buying spells. Not a big difference.

3. Removal of the spell-making altar. IMO, removal of a overpowered game mechanic that was a bit difficult to believe. Unbelievable in that: a. why did NPCs never have any 'custom' spells and b. why was that single "university" the only place in Cyrodil to have any ability to make custom spells?

Sure in principle, the idea of custom-making spells is appealing, but it was just rather crudely implemented in Oblivion.

4. Fewer spells in Skyrim than Oblivion, but like I said, a lot of them in Oblivion seemed kinda useless.

5. Collapsing of Mysticism spells into other schools: not a big deal really. The same basic functionality is still there.

Beats Fable 3.

The biggest problem with magic in Skyrim is the lack of Spell Creation, loss of Spell effects. Destruction is a set number of damage meaning late game it won't do enough damage to be a worthwhile damage tool.

Now I like the ability that you use two hands for magic and can combine same spells together and you can aim spells kinda better then Oblivion, although you won't be doing as much damage. Although Conjuration and Illusion are definitely two schools of magic along with Restoration that are useful through out the game.

Right, because removing options is a good thing!
How could you possibly think that your 3--5 or good things?

That's debatable.
It certainly doesn't beat Two Worlds 2, or Amalur, or Demon's/Dark Souls, or Dragon's Dogma.

No spell crafting, Illusion and Conjuration outclass Destruction in every way, outrageous magicka cost, NO SPELL CRAFTING, enchanting is broken, mages shouldn't be able to fight at top effectiveness with a full set of Daedric Armor.

In principle I agree with you that, in a 'sand-box' game, providing a player with more options is preferable to curtailing the options to the player.

However, this has to be tempered by two other concepts: balance and consistent/ongoing challenge throughout play.

Playing vanilla Oblivion, with no mods, I found the spellmaking altar combined with the enchanting altar to be both VERY cool, and very unbalancing. Once you have access to the spell making altar, if you are smart, patient, and plan ahead (and in particular if you take advantage of things like fast travel and neverending merchant gold in vanilla) you are effectively unbeatable.

I have never encountered a mod that improved on this game balance, except for the fact that some mods such as OOO just plain make Cyrodil more dangerous and so the delay until you become Godlike by virtue of your access to the Arcane Uni is extended.

Yes I agree spellmaking was quite fun, but it is still there in Oblivion if anyone wants to revisit it, and I can't say based on my limited experience with Skyrim so far that its absence from Skyrim is a real deficit to the game.

In my experience in an unmodded game... sword and spell just doesn't work beyond early levels. Destruction spells either don't hurt enough or cost too much to cast, and using a spell in your offhand instead of a shield means you can't block.

Throw mods in, like Dual Wald Parry to enable blocking with your weapon when you have an offhand spell, or the myriad mods that boost low end destruction damage, reduce the absurd high-end destruction spell costs, or both... then it becomes viable. But in vanilla game, Destruciton is only useful if you have the cheap overpowered Imapct spell and are abusing Destruction fortify enchants to make high-end stuff actually affordable to cast.

So very useless... the amount of times in Skyrim that I've wanted:

• Open lock spells
  
• Waterwalking
  
• Cure disease
  
• Silence
  
• Reflection spells
  
• Skill/Attribute boost/drain spells
  
• Burden
  
• Levitate (that crops up a fair bit actually)
  
• Sanctuary
  
• Mark/Recall
  
• Intervention
  
• Resist/Weakness x

The new spells we got:

• Clairvoyance (mechanically pointless)
  
• Wards (useless past a certain level)
  
• Transmute
  
• Ability to use some weak runes and spray spells

We are completely unable to modify/create spells, so NPC mages are a lot stronger than any player mage can hope to be.

This post is true, unfortunately. Illusion, while lacking in variety of spells, makes you practically unstoppable and is arguably the best spell school in the game.

As for saying the removal of spellmaking was for balance purposes, Skyrim is not balanced. At all. Archery/1H/2H get far more ways to increase their damage; +100% in perks, over +100% in enchantments, bonus damage from sneak, smithing significantly increases damage output, the ability to do power attacks with only one stamina and attack with zero stamina, etc. Destruction can't keep up with that at higher levels. Your summons will even do more damage than you, not to mention that mages that boost their magicka pool every level-up and take the magicka reduction perks get screwed over by those choices when they get enchanting to 100.

And it goes beyond the removal of spellmaking. The variety in spells is pathetic. It's a shame too, because I really like the way magic is used in this game.

Skyrim is the worst TES for battle mages IMO with A)the favorites system replacing hotkeys and B)you have to hold magic now.

In Oblivion, you could have a spell, sword and shield handy. Not so in Skyrim.

Magic is [censored] in Skyrim, ESPECIALLY if you're using it one-handed. The damage cap is plainly nonsense, and I agree with those that think that destruction just plain costs too much in the first place.

Okay, so some good points here. Not having played the game much yet, I will take your words for it that some of these 'imbalances' exist as you level up. It does seem like a destruction spell is fairly weak, though I haven't fiddled with the perks enough.

I think I'll go with a mage that is almost completely focused on Destruction, Alteration and Restoration to see if I can prove you guys 'wrong.'

Granted! I'll be playing on Adept skill level and taking advantage of every vanilla opportunity to increase power in these three schools, i.e., specialization.

Of course I don't know yet, not enough experience, but it seems to me that if you can accept or at least entertain that the dynamic of magic in the game is not simply a reflection of developer stupidity or malice, and that there is a sensible 'plan' behind it, extreme-specialization within a context in which being a magic-user is intended to be less 'common' would seem to be a tenable explanation?

I avoid the destruction tree like the plague. Enchanting can make it viable, but it is still really weak when compared to bows and swords.

I also feel so irritated when I sink everything I have into being an uber mage and some NPC mage has more magicka than I do and A TON more hp than I do and appears to be doing a lot more damage with the same bloody spell. WTF? At least when I am a warrior I can go toe to toe with anyone and never feel outclassed.

Well, I think that is a good thing since it has some realism. Otherwise you're shooting the spells out of your eyes or mouth or whatever.

The problem with Skyrim is its lack of selection.

Thu'um is just shouting magic. Vivec has also... emitted... magic from a non-conventional place.

I like the way spells are implemented, and by that I mean I like that you have to equip spells in your hand, and that you can charge them up, and such.

I hate that there is little to no variety in spells, I hate that destruction magic is limited to elemental stuff(unless you're playing a vampire), and I hate how weak destruction spells are.

When a fireball that seemingy has the force of a rocket does less damage than a single arrow you know something has gone horribly wrong.

Also, regular telekinesis uses way too much magicka.

It's nice and all, but I prefer staffs. It looks badass.

You don't scrap what appears to be popular features because they are poorly implemented. You improve them in the next game.