1) Leveling it is a joke

Either you merchantile like mad or there's no way you're leveling it without training. This is a balance issue as all skills should level at an equal pace. The leveling system (level it by using it) and the amount of speech checks in the game is an absolute recipe for disaster. While combat skills and crafting skills get used nonstop, speech checks actually feel like a rarity. The amount of speech checks in game is totally disproportional to the leveling system itself.

2) It's usefulness is trivial

I get approached by the same "radiant" thief encounter I've seen a dozen times, and I can either make Speech useless by simply being a thief myself OR....I could fight him. He's not that hard.
And every boss fight in the game? Are there ANY of them that encompass speech? I mean, some random [censored] with a dagger approaches me and I can talk him down, but the big level 80 boss character with the OHKO spell can't be talked down at all. Some might say "realism da boss isn't scurred" but no, the idea is YOU are so good at speech that you can persuade others to listen to you, and from a balance perspective it SHOULD offer you a chance to pass up on tough fights. New Vegas did a wonderful job making speech useful in that it -literally- unlocked quests (couldn't take all of them without speech) and got you out of some incredibly difficult fights. (Ulysses, Lanius, the BoS firing squad that literally has five snipers pointed at you the moment the fight starts if you fail the speech check)
"The merchantile effects are useful though!!" Yeah, they would be if Draugr and Bandits didn't literally s**t gold.

3) Even the dialog is lulzy

Nothing major I suppose, but for being persuasive, it's certainly pretty lame. I remember one quest in particular where I had to convince a drunken guy who owed a woman debt that he didn't have to pay it back because she pitied him so much (weird concept to begin with wtf?), I approach him with the issue and his reaction is "NEVER! A -INSERT FAMILY NAME HERE- always pays back his debts!!" My reaction? My ingenius smooth-talking response in the speech check? "C'mon, don't be stubborn." C'MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON is what I basically said to him. His world as he knows it then shatters from the foundation as he has a life-changing revelation and realizes the error of his ways, apologizes and vows to change his ways. All because I said "C'MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!"

Lolrly? Pretty sure normal conversations don't work like that.



I'm in no way advocating such a cut when I say this, but at the state speech is currently in? They might as well cut it. Which as I said, I don't advocate this. They shouldn't cut it because to be blunt, it's downright shameful that an RPG can't properly encompass a speech skill. Passive characters have existed in RPGs for ages.

if you don't like it then don't use it.

At least it's not an Admire, Boast, Intimidate

But it would have been nice if speech were more important in the game.

[Intelligence]So you think speech is a joke, and dialogue options are stupid?

And as speech options similar to the above were common in Fallout 3, it shows that writing has never been Bethesda's strong suite. Nor has balance or useful gameplay mechanics.

Besides, it's dungeon crawler. What use could non-combat, non-crafting skills have anyway?

I hate it because one of my favorite mods for Oblivion relied heavily on Speechcraft, and in Skyrim it is primarily Merchantile

On point more or less

the creation of a better game.

advancement, creativity, depth, meaning, choice, consequence, fun.

I was trying to be sarcastic, but failed miserably

You should really work on your Speech skill then.

Just find a Speech system that's better than Skyrim's...

Speech is amazing. Thank you Beth.

lol!

i got the sarcastic part, but, we all know there was some serious truth in there, as well.

Fallout: New Vegas used speech perfectly. It could actaully be used as a primary skill, and could get you out of some of the toughest fights in the game.

I was playing New Vegas and Planescape: Torment recently. Now those games had excellent speech systems.
It always reminds me of this picture: http://www.geekstir.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/rpgs.jpg

Agreed; a thousand times agreed.

In the lead-up to Skyrim I was convinced that Speech would be even better than Oblivion, thanks to Bethesda's work on Fallout 3. Now, Fallout 3 could certainly have used more Speech checks, but it was a good start. Dialogue generally in F3 was superior - more interactive, less railroaded. You could approach conversations in different ways depending on your skills and attributes (wha? huh?). For example, with a high Strength you sometimes had the option to intimidate. With high Intelligence you could convince people you were educated. And so on.

And the best part is, these different conversation choices actually led to different outcomes.

Compare that with the first Speech check players of Skyrim are likely to make: Getting past the guard at Whiterun. Just about every option there will work, except Intimidate. Even the non-skill-check option will work. Now granted, as an early speech check I understand the desire to make it relatively easy, but the problem is that it's fairly representative of the rest of the game.

Yeah, there are a few places you can actually use Speech. But if you can't? You get to fight, which is what the entire game is about anyway, and you won't miss much, if anything.

It is a disappointment, and a real shame to have such a useless skill, when the potential for it was so great.

it was without a doubt a good step forward.

however, one basic fact: obsidian.

Actually, Admire, Taunt, and Intimdate was much better than what we have now. At least the player had options, controls, and a random chance of succeeding based on their skill, which they could apply to so many quests and NPCs that you were often handicapped if you didn't have speech as at least a minor skill.

Now taking bets on whether or not Speechcraft will be removed from TES: VI because it was 'useless' and 'under-used' like spears, throwing weapons, acrobatics, and everything else that Blizzard axed because they didn't take the time to make a skill worthwhile and decided it would just be better to remove it.

Like in an RPG

yeah it would be cool if there was more dialogue options. I hate that i could care less about 99% of the population in the game. I hate that i know what every single charector in the game is meant for. if someone isnt giving a quest or selling something they are useless. I hope it will be more dinamic for the next game they make.

and, it's not just about dialogue options. it's about alternative methods of completing objectives.

depth of conversation and multiple ways of accomplishing goals.

I've seen a lot of your posts and you seem to be suffering from Dragonborn1 syndrome. (People that have been here since before release will know how I am talking about.)

OP: I agree.

I like the Speech system in Skyrim for one simple reason: at no point am I forced to feed an NPC a conversation pie.

I hated that feature of Oblivion. Hated it with the passion of a thousand flaming suns. That thing is and was an abomination against RP, immersion, and common sense. Speechcraft should never be a mini-game, especially not one as needless and easy to cheese (especially at high skill levels) like Oblivion's.

Mind you, I'd still prefer the option to use intimidate/bribe/persuade on all NPCs, not just the ones the game deigns to let me use those on. But if that means going back to a conversation pie chart...I think I'll frantically cling to stick with what we've got. I still prefer the way Morrowind did it, but Skyrim's is an acceptable alternative.

What in the blue hell is Dragonborn1 syndrome? I can complete quests according to my RP. I don't need mundane dialogue choices for that.

I agree that there is very little use to speech in this game. All of the persuade/intimidate interactions are trivial and don't really affect any quests.

As for leveling speech, I think there is an issue with how xp is added. Your speech gain when selling is tied to item value but I think you only get the xp on the first item sold. This means you would have to exit/ reenter the barter dialog for each item. I think this explains why speech levels so slowly.

Dragonborn1 syndrome:

Dragonborn1 was a user who posted here a lot during the Summer and saw absolutely NOTHING wrong with Skyrim, everything was made perfectly, there were no mistakes, nothing he would of liked different, ect.