Melee can achieve maximum damage using the many different options to boost your damage far beyond that of a casters maximum hit, right? Stamina runs out during the duration of a long encounter for melee, putting a stand still on that maximum 2k+ power wing until sufficient stamina has regenerated. Provided that you have spent your points correctly, you probably aren't very efficient with mana using that build (Canceling out any chance of healing except for potion use)

Okay then...

Casters can boost their stats through various methods providing nearly infinite mana, which in turn provides a longer sustained rate of damage.

To put it into simple terms... This is not number specific, just a general rule of thumb.

-Melee can burst out X amount damage, where as casters can only achieve Y damage maximum (Y is roughly half of X in this example)
-Stamina depletes, putting that massive melee damage output to a standstill and leaving us to default at our usual less than half of X damage (base damage)
-Y (representing caster damage) sustains a constant damage output for a longer duration of time, providing you with the ability to surpass the damage of a melee toon within a few moments of a fight.

The longer the fight, the more resources you use. This remains true to both stamina and mana in this case.

If Bethesda were to scale caster damage to run alongside the amount of mana you had (In effort to match your level) it could prove to be very overpowered. By mashing many points into your mana pool would grant you a huge boost in damage, and little to no health. So at that, you couldn't take a hit.

If they were to just put a scale on caster damage according to appropriate level, it would still be overpowered. Provided that you have maxed out your mana regen and mana pool, you could sustain an equal to or greater damage output than that of a melee character for a much longer period of time.

As it stands, I feel that everyone has blown this way out of proportion. I know many people who play on master as a full blown caster that do not have the "big" problems the rest of you seem to be having.

This could all be simply avoided by pursuing other aspects of casting. Incorporating different methods of attack into destruction class strategies is probably the goal of Bethesda. Diversifying your character is the only way to successfully make yourself a swiss army knife to combat. Simply going all melee has proven to be equally as hard without using some form of mana. So- there is no harm in applying conjuration, archery, illusion, and alteration effects into your strategy. If you want to be a straight caster, fine. Play by the rules of a caster.

I'm not expecting anyone to post and say "Hey, your right!" I am just trying to make the point that not everyone on these forums is complaining about it. I plan on making a full-time caster soon enough. The only reason I even went melee is because I feel like a spartan with my shield bash

So have at it again. I'm anxious to hear what counter arguments can come up from this.

And people said I was talking nonsense when I said you'll need to Hybridize your character.

But I want to be uber and destroy everything in sight with a push of the button

Enough is enough. I happen to be on the side of the fact that they DO need to be scaled, but I've listed all my reasons on the other threads. There are a billion of them to choose from, we don't need one more.

Bethesda's moderators have started locking and even deleting threads on this topic, which proves they are aware of it. I would recommend you either post your thoughts on the threads in play, or wait to see what the patch brings us.

Stamina only depletes when using power attacks, you can still keep swinging for a lot of damage. I don't even use power attacks, they're not really a necessity for melee.
And I'm pretty sure half of what many melee builds do with or without power attacks, is still better damage than a destruction mage will do.

Courtesy of dictionary.com;

Ignorance

ig-no-rance
noun

the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

I have been posting in these various threads, one of which I started and has 80+ posts at least. I felt that from the information I have gathered by different people this would prove to be a very well spoken counter point to make against the whole argument. I hope they don't lock it, because I honestly feel I have made a very clear point.

Man, I had no idea how much my mage svcked before I started reading forum threads about it.

Oh my god, what have I read. My eyes are bleeding now. Please stop

Seriously people! WTF!

There is a severe imbalance between playstyles here (AT HIGHER LEVELS), and its easy to fix, and it'll be fixed in time. Until then, various levels of whining about the state of things is normal and to be expected but why on NIRN would someone pretend everything's fine?!??

This isn't a MMORPG where you can gain some sort of advantage by enforcing the ridiculous status quo, by the 8/9 Divines!! GAWD.

This sort of thing just makes me lose my faith in humanity.

This isnt a MMORPG, so people should be able to play how they want and not be the lesser for it.

This forum is suggesting otherwise.

i read it, and it was well spoken and heads-and-tails more civilized than most other posts on the topic. I wish all counter arguments were this concise, then we might even get somewhere.

But the very next two posts were obvious trolls, and that should tell you where this is headed.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion, but frankly I'm too exhausted from the other threads to explain why. I do hope this thread doesn't go into the gutter like the others, but I'm not optimistic.

So they can do insignificant damage over a sustained period. I fail to see how this is useful. In Oblivion, you could spam the first destruction spell you began the game with almost infinitely at higher levels. Somehow, I have a feeling that you didn't do this, though. However, it does have INFINITE sustainability. A shame that means diddly squat.



What exactly is the problem with the tradeoff of being a glass cannon, again? Last I checked it was an accepted play style in most RPGs.





Replace the word "Magicka" with "Stamina" and you see how Combat-types still outstrip pure magic types in every way.




Care to let the rest of the world on their big secret? Speccing hybrid doesn't count.





Or, they could make the Destruction school viable so that you don't have to rely on other skills as a crutch. And no, I'm not suggesting that one be reliant on a single skill throughout the entire game.

Okay, but the point I am making is that some people who are arguing that melee is superior are bringing up the 2k+ damage swings. If they are hitting that hard, they are pretty much "perked" into straight damage with no other real successful method of regenerating health. Thus relying on straight damage to carry out and finish an encounter with a foe, which in a prolonged fight will get you killed. So I disagree and will say that power attacks are essential to provide 2k hits, making the credibility of previous accusations faulty when comparing the two (Melee and Casting)

There are extremely useful spells out there, and saying that regular melee swings would do far more damage is just a speculation. Even if that were so, the benefit of being a caster far outweighs the role of a melee character just by knowledge of such spells as paralyze, calm, frenzy, and summon. There are a huge variety of spells out there that straight damage casters refuse to use. If a two handed melee character refuses to use other options of health regeneration, he would die just as easily.

This isn't an accusation it's just some questions:

Are people taking the appropriate support perks that they'll need as magic users?

and...

Are people skilling up to high skill levels in the school of magic they're trying to use?

and...

Are people choosing "magika" when asked to increase a stat when leveling?

yes, yes and yes.

As far as Destruction magic is concerned, the game is broken, not the players.

No one even brought up the 2k power swings. It's the 500 damage normal swings vs the 100 damage master spells that take 5 seconds to cast and deplete most of mana pool that people are complaining about.

It isn't speculation that melee damage is a lot stronger. It's also that warriors are so much tankier. Warriors don't die nearly as fast as mages, wth are you talking about.

Many mages who don't have the right spell reduction items also complain that their mana pool becomes depleted too fast so it's nowhere near sustained damage but lets say it is sustained and a mage can cast forever. It still wouldn't matter if the damage is like throwing pillows around for 30 seconds while one decent blow from an enemy can kill a mage.

That is most unfortunate. The 'new' is certainly wearing off quickly, isn't it?

Meh. There's still plenty of time for patches, and worse case scenario, mods.

Welcome to elderscroll games folks. Magic has always taken extra effort on the users part and I like it that way.

As a 32 warrior type in light armor nothing has killed me faster than magic users, with resist enchants in all schools. Shouts+magic+and some cunjuration is [censored].

i more or less explained what you just explained... the "pure mage" require logic and planning, but in turn he gains several advanteges which could be game changing depending on the fight. while a warrior would be useless if he was against a mage with decent frost spells.

btw, i totally agree with you

People have brought up 2k power swings because I didn't just pull that number out of nowhere to make a point.

I never said that warriors were less "tankier" than mages. I would have to say your right in saying mages die faster. The point I was making is that mages have much more mana to burn on healing than melee characters do, thus supplying them far more overall health throughout a fight. That considered, they can heal themselves successfully in a fight due to the sheer size of their mana pool, whereas a warrior can not and must rely on potions more or less which is far less efficient than healing by means of spells.

That's not really what's being debated.

It looks to me like they tried to balance Magic and the physical archetypes (Question here is, why? This isn't an MMO, it doesn't even have online, there is no need to balance "classes") and failed completely. Removal of most of the skills that allowed Mages to become Stealthy characters (Chameleon, Invisibility, and Open Lock) and lowering the damage of destruction spells basically leaves Mages the role of a "Specialist" class. To be honest I can't complain too much with that but it is a shame.

But I haven't actually leveled a magic-user yet so I don't have first-hand experience.

Obligatory reference to this thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1266212-2469-armor-3199-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-31-perks/

The heart of the matter is that destruction lacks methods to make it more powerful as time goes on. Weapons have smithing and enchanting to make them do as much damage per swing as the master level destruction spells.This is not taking into account criticals or power attacks. Except a warrior does not rely on stamina to just get off attacks and can tank far better than alteration will allow.

The solution to use other schools of magic is also a misleading response. The point of the argument is for destruction only, not for whether mages as a whole are viable. Spell swords, sorcerers, etc. no longer have an equivalent damage dealing force comparable to crafted weapons. Any "class" you make relying on destruction as a damage source will be quickly out matched unless you fall back on other skills to continue doing damage or do respectable damage at high levels.

I think a proper solution is to either make destruction scale or, better yet, make smithing and enchanting affect the damage that destruction deals so it is equally in the group with the other weapon skills.

yay, infinite mana.

Now I can shoot 30 incins at a master difficulty Boss while the warrior or rogue 1 shots it.


Sup?