Anakin to me just came across as been a spoilt little brat who would whine about everything just because things didnt go his way.

Jedi Masters are always testing younglings, candidates, padawans, Knights and even themselves....even when the one being tested doesn't know it. What better way to test one's pride then to see how they react?

Fact of the matter is the Jedi Council never fully believed Anakin was The Prophecy had foretold because Jedi do not believe in absolutes. Obi Won even says this in Episode III before he and Anakin square off. They just say he fits it. If anything they must give Anakin hope that he can succeed, but at the same time test him to ensure he can be a true Jedi and not let something like pride or a desire for greatness to be he leading reason to pursue doing good things. A Jedi who is destined or has the potential to be great must let things happen and act when the right opportunity arises.

As a Sith fan, this is one of the philosophies that protects the Jedi but also is a flaw because it forces patience and it hinders them from taking action sooner when it is required making deception easier to achieve.

You all have interesting views on the subject.

@GT409:

That makes sense, I was wondering who is this guy ordering Vader around. Personally that's why I love episode V, in that episode Vader was mostly independent. The Emperor, was busy doing his own thing; so Vader was left in charge.

In the post episode VI books, they describe Anakin's descendents; and their own struggles with the darkside. All I know really is Luke becomes virtually a god in the books, I guess he fulfills the potential his father once had.

But yes, Palpatine and his SIth master created Anakin, using the force. The reason why Anakin had such a high midichlorian count, was cause he was basically the force in human flesh. And yes, I know how die hard fans hate the idea of midichlorians.

@Roy:

You and I share similar views on the subject.

@DeathToaster:

I'm sure most here share your sentiments, but let's try not devolving the topic into PT vs OT thread. If I wanted that I would have posted my questions on the official Star Wars site.

Btw: I agree with your sentiments. Episode III was the best one and I did like certain parts of Episode I, like Darth Maul. Imo, the true star of the PT was Palpatine. But none of those movies stand up to "The Empire Strikes Back." Lucas should have rehired Kershner to make all the movies, imo.

Episode VI was good, I thought Luke had vastly improved over the whiny Luke from episode IV, and was even badass. I liked the dialogue between Vader and Luke. But ultimately Ewoks killed it for me. I know originally Lucas wanted the Empire to loose to Wookies. But according to him, he couldn't find that many tall people. Really? There weren't tall basketball players in the 70's?

He did, that's why sometimes I refer to him as man child. But that was the reason for my original question. In that if by revealing Anakin's special destiny to him at an early age, if that attributed to his bratish and winy behaviour. So when he didn't get his way he reacted in a childish manner. Since in his mind everything the Jedi did was to hold him back, every promotion, every mission denied, was all to keep him from becoming too powerful.

At least that's what i think.

Two decades of studying religion, and studying Star Wars, and trying to live in George Lucas's headspace? 70's Lucas more than 00's Lucas, although deeper inspection of the prequels is making me appreciate him more. If only it weren't for the terrible screen-writing.

Take the Jedi Code and compare it to the Bhagavad Gita:

There is no passion, there is peace.

The Seer knows peace:

The man who stirs up his own lusts

Can never know peace.¹

Enlightened, he passes

At once to the highest,

The peace beyond passion.²

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

When you have reached enlightenment, ignorance will delude you no longer. In the light of that knowledge you will see the entire creation within your own Atman and in me.³

Far from each other, and leading to different ends, are ignorance and knowledge⁴.

There is no chaos, there is harmony.

When the bonds are broken

His illumined heart

Beats in Brahman:

His every action

Is worship of Brahman:

Can such acts bring evil?

He who knows Brahman attains the supreme goal. Brahman is the abiding reality, he is pure knowledge, and he is infinity. He who know that Brahman dwells within the lotus of the heart becomes one with him and enjoys all blessings.⁶

There is no death, there is the Force.

The truly wise mourn neither for the living nor for the dead. There was never a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor any of these kings. Nor is there any future in which we shall cease to be.⁷

The Self, whose symbol is OM, is the omniscient Lord. He is not born. He does not die. He is neither cause nor effect. This Ancient One is unborn, imperishable, eternal: though the body be destroyed, he is not killed.

If the slayer thinks he slays, if the slain thinks that he is slain, neither of them knows the truth. The Self slays not, nor is he slain.⁸

The very core philosophies of the Jedi mirror Hindu philosophy. The idea that there is a energy, if you will, that creates the universe, pervades it, and guides it. That to act without desires, without emotions, is to act in concert with it. The Jedi Guardians embody the yoga of action and the Consulars the yoga of renunciation.

The Sith embrace the selfish desires that bring them suffering. The Katha Upanishad says:

The good is one thing, the pleasant is another. These two, differing in their ends, both prompt to action. Blessed are they that choose the good; they that choose the pleasant miss the goal.

Both the good and the pleasant present themselves to men. The wise, having examined both, distinguish the one from the other. The wise prefer the good to the pleasant; the foolish, driven by fleshly desires, prefer the pleasant to the good.

The Sith are those ignorant ones.

Really, it cannot be explained in a post. Hopefully that gives you a basis. Also hopefully, a real follower of Hinduism won't come in here and punch me in the Swadhisthana chakra for mucking up his religion.

¹Bhagavad Gita

²Gita

³Gita

⁴ Katha Upanishad

⁵Gita

⁶ Taittiriya Upanaishad

⁷Gita

⁸Katha Upanishad.

All translations by Swami Prabhavananda

That's all very interesting in how the force is like this real religion, but how does that MAKE IT the one true vision? A lot of faithful types have given me a hard sell on this kind of stuff, and I'm never convinced there is one vision and purity of purpose because they all purport to have the truth. You make an excellent case for why these are linked culturally and symbolically, but done nothing to show this is the unconditional truth. You have also not shown that this is the superior and true path. Which I think is a little on the impossible side I suspect. I also think your letting your own personal views cloud your information.

Are we arguing about Star Wars characters believing something or about how George Lucas intended things when he created a fictional religion? Because I am a little confused about how you are viewing this discussion....

Jedi are just the Vulcans of the star wars universe an id rather be a Sith any day of the week

if we are talking about Star Wars professions, I'd go with a Smuggler of Bounty Hunter...

R0Y, I like your breakdown of Vader's story - it is very insightful - but I have a few bones to pick.

That's not what Yoda is telling Anakin at all. The most important line is when Yoda tells Anakin that what he must do is let go of all that he fears to lose. He is afraid that Padme will die. He is afraid that her death will hurt him. He is seeking power for selfish reasons, because he wants to hold on to what he has.

Palpatine does not play on his search for power, he plays on his fear of loss.

It is true that the Jedi are uncharacteristically blind about Anakin, although they often make reference to the heavy presence of the dark side clouding their vision, so maybe that makes sense. But Anakin has many sins, and I think that in his dealings with the council, the one that really burns is pride. He is one of the strongest Jedi. He is the Chosen One, the prophecied savior. He is a war hero. To many people, he is a big deal. The Jedi refuse to treat him like he is one. I think jealousy of Obi Wan might have a small role here, as well.

I'm just as confused as you then. What I'm saying is that in the lore of the Star Wars universe its pretty apparent that the light/dark side balances itself out and that in addition there are many shades of the force used by numerous species/groups/individuals. The force seems to just keep itself in check by allowing no one group to become too dominant. You then claimed that in the lore the Jedi Code/Light Side was the correct balance of the entire concept of the force no matter what. Going so far as to say it was the one true correct path. You then argued Lucas has confirmed this. Then you start to talk about how he drew inspiration from reality.

I asked you to prove it, and you start talking about real life religions. I'm just as confused by your talk as you are. In no way, shape, or form did you explain or answer my original question.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker

What I am saying, is that most of the EU lore is not only non-canon, but wrong. There is no balance between the light and dark side. The dark side is by definition evil and wrong. George Lucas intended it to be this way. He drew many inspirations for Star Wars from many sources. Many elements of the movie stem from Akira Kurosawa films. Many aspects of Tatooine are Arabic in inspiration. And the Force is heavily influenced by religions like Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and mostly Hinduism. It is hard to prove this with Lucas words, because he keeps chaging his story about basically everything to do with how and when he came up with the ideas for Star Wars, but it becomes apparent when you deconstruct his work.

Now, to be fair, I think that much of the EU is great, and many of the books score big on war, political intrigues, and character growth. But they svck at understanding the Force.

There is no doubt in my mind that Anakin was jealous of Obi Wan. After all every time Anakin thought he was going to be promoted, or sent on a mission. They usually pick Obi Wan over him.

Then again did the Jedi themselves put that pride in him, by saying he fits "The Chosen One" prophecy? I believe the Jedi handled the Anakin situation poorly, he showed all the signs of a future fallen Jedi. Yoda was right in his original assessment, he really should've never been trained in the first place. He displayed none of the characteristics of a stereotypical Jedi, of being calm, cool and reserved. Jedi's traditionally don't let their emotions get in the way. Anakin was highly emotional and irrational at times.

Same here but i was on about the lack of emotion that both Jedi an Vulcans share if feeling love an happiness is forbidden then no wonder the little brat took them down.

I'm not buying it. Throw a pile of paint at a wall, and every single person is going to have an opinion on what it means. In other words I'm incredibly skeptical of your claims since you seem to be projecting your own beliefs on it as opposed to the facts at hand. It doesn't help you have no references at all other than personal opinion. The EU lore which currently is cannon contradicts a lot of what you say. Not to mention you even know Lucas opinions have changed and are always going to change on it.

I just thought of something. Luke himself was trained at an even older age (19 or 20). He was whiny and bratty in episode IV, but after that he pretty much kept a level head. Except when dealing with Vader, then threw all that Jedi self control out the window.

Basically what I'm saying is: Since Luke was trained at even older age than Anakin (10 or 11), and had learned how to form relationships, and even learned how to deal with loss. Why didn't he display the highly emotional and irrational emotions, Anakin displayed?

Hmm, it could be that Obi Wan became a better teacher over the years in exile? Plus Yoda taught him a lot of self control also. They pretty much learned from their mistakes with Anakin, and prevented Luke from having a similar fate.

Luke didn't grow up believing he was going to be super awesome, Yoda kicked him into gear after Luke got his ass whipped by daddy, and hung around those more down to earth. Helps to have good people around and face your demons, instead of letting them fester.

Well Palpatine did think the Jedi were overconfident and full of themselves. I think they brought about their own end as others have suggested. Or at least sped it up with their http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE.

OK im just gonna put this out their but anyone else getting the urge to watch the original trilogy cause i sure am.

Yes, Obi-Wan did have the meteoric rise that Anakin felt he deserved. He was only about a dozen years older than Anakin and already on the council. What Anakin did not see was that Obi-Wan was wise beyond his years (although a bit stupid about his student) rather than powerful beyond his control like Anakin was.

Blame it all on Qui-Gon.

You might, perhaps, better argue the Jedi and Sith on a system of nirvana and samsara, but I am more familiar with Hinduism. So you might be right that there is some bias there. As I delve deeper into Buddhism, I might prefer that model for the Force more. But that doesn't help you debunk my position (not that you offered any sources yourself). I should point out, although I already sort of did, that I am not a follower of Hinduism, only someone who read more than average on the religion, so I can hardly be projecting my own beliefs on the subject.

The EU is third tier cannon. It goes movies -> technical manuals -> EU. Also, the EU has no quality control. The New Rebellion, case closed.

Look at the movies, the end-all, be-all of canon. They tell you all that you need to know.

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan says: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

This has strong parallels in the Hindu concept of Brahman.

In the Empire Strikes Back Yoda says: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

More parallels.

Yoda again: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive.

The light side flows from the virtues of Hindu philosophy.

Yoda: Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

In Hinduism, the things that tie you to the mundane world, that keep you from enlightenment, are the gunas. There are three, and these things Yoda warns against conform to the middle one, rajas the passionate. As for the deeds of the rajas, pain is their fruit. Fear probably goes to the the lowest one, tamas the ignorant.

In Episode Three, Yoda, yet again: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.

This mirrors what Krishna told Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita.

More Yoda: Train yourself to let go... of everything you fear to lose.

This is the path to enlightenment.

I can keep going. We can deconstruct it even further, but I have to go to bed soon.

Would love to, but I am not sure where I put my box of VHS tapes. On the upside, Spike will probably play it soon.

Yeah, Spike always repeats them. I actually saw all six in on sitting on SpikeTv. It was the first time in a long time I was able to do that, and on a weekend no less. That's how all these questions came to my mind, lol.

Just because it is third tier cannon does not mean it doesn't count. I could instantly "win" any debate by saying x, y, and z are not allowed if they are critical to the understanding. It's a bias of picking out evidence to only support your opinions over time and not consider the alternatives. Woopdee fricken dooo it corespondent to real religions. That's irrelevant. Deconstruction is irrelevant to the debate at hand. Which you can't prove since it hinges on a theory.

The factual debate is that in the canon (all of it) there are sources to contradict what your saying, and until we see the movies contradict the lesser canon there is no way for you to prove your point. It all hinges on wishful thinking of being right. Where as I could go on wookiepedia and begin to pull out a lot of sources on the matter. Simply deconstructing the themes does not mean jack [censored] without evidence to back it up. I could start disregarding cannon and making all sorts of crazy wild theories as well.

On a completely SEPARATE debate I agree there are parallels with the Jedi/Sith/Other force systems being parallels of real world religions and faith. Unfortunately that has little to do with PROVING that the Jedi are the balance to the force.

You are dealing in the realms of theoretical, I'm talking hard facts in the cannon. Now just because I'm right now, doesn't mean I won't change my opinion later to update it to any new cannon consistencies. So in other words, you haven't proven jack [censored].

Edit

It's as wrong as trying to prove one religion "The True One" laugh/try to prove all the others wrong.

Hmmm... could be fun. Let's do that.

Article: The Force:

George is probably talking out his ass, as usual, but here we have a basis straight from the horses, umm.... ass, that the Force is based on real world religion, where the idea is that one side is right and the other side is wrong. Interesting. Perhaps there is more...

Should have done this sooner.

Oh yeeeeaahhhh!

(side note, we need a kool-aid man emoticon )

Article: Jedi Code:

I think we're done here.

Ah yes, good catch. I wrote that post in between a busy day of work, no time to include all of the details from what I recall from the films

That said, it's much easier to let something go if you've never really had it. They Jedi teachings may have included lessons on how to let go and how to live in a more un-attached way (I hesitate to use the word "detach" because the Jedi are very clearly involved in various politics and power struggles), but have they ever dealt with someone like Anakin?

Perhaps so, perhaps not. I don't recall if it was ever really clear what their policy was on other force sensitives that were "too old." Did they leave them alone? Did they let them do their own thing? Or force them into the Jedi order? Plenty of force sensitives (from what I can tell from the Expanded Universe, canon classifications be damned! ) were shamans/wise ones/warriors/healers/anologous in their own cultures anyway, so I'm sure had their own methods of training and development.

Maybe the Jedi HAD methods of dealing with someone with Anakin's background, and they just did not realize how deeply entrenched some feelings had been due to his upbringing. Or maybe Anakin was just too much and they were ill equipped to handle the proverbial bull in their proverbial China shop.

Hm, rather than pride, I would vote for frustration, hopelessness, and as time passed on, resentment.

Episodes IV, V, and VI contained plenty of evidence that Anakin was all around a well respected and well regarded man (very mature, ahem, despite some of the actor's choices/direction in I, II, and III).

It's possible that those characters were just remembering the good old times. But I think not.

I think Anakin really WAS a thoughtful, considerate, respectful, developed jedi warrior. Accomplished in battle and naturally skilled. He had plenty of banter with Obi-Wan, and in many respects treated him like a peer, rather than someone he thought he was better than. If he thought he was being put down by Obi-Wan, it was only because Obi-Wan still underestimated him, but perhaps in more of a brotherly way. Their peer-to-peer banter lasted pretty much until politics started happening.

I think it is far more likely that as visions of Padme's death grew stronger and stronger, and doors started closing around him one by one (no holocrons, no help from Jedi, vague help from Palpatine, escalation of clone wars, sith on the planet, etc) and as his pleas for Jedi assistance/advice fell of deaf ears, he became more and more desperate.

So for characters like Obi-Wan, where he previously just saw an elderly brother/kind master who light heartedly underestimated him, Anakin now saw as a force that constricted him. And why? "Because the jedi order said so."

If your love was dying, and the only people who could help were saying "you should learn non-attachment, let them go" you'd be flipping mad too! You'd be hurt and confused that suddenly everyone who had helped raised you and had your back in battle was now shutting you down and out at the time you needed most, because they cared about their "Jedi order" more than they cared about the individual Jedi in that order.