I have encountered a logical error relating to stealth and NPC behaviors:

When I shoot a guy using arrows/magic in stealth mode, it is silly for them to stop trying to find me. The guy has three arrows sticking out of his chest! He shouldn't give up saying, "I guess it was nothing." Also, when I kill a guy who has a buddy who discovers the dead body, he should never give up until he finds me. The only time enemy NPCs should give up is when you make a noise or perform some other non-aggressive action.

Thanks,
Jake

When you can find a game (any game) that actually has AI that does what you're asking, let me know. Because I have never seen AI in games with stealth components act any different; they all give up after a bit, even if you've just filled their chest full of lead.

If I recall the Splinter Cell games had these mechanics. It wouldn't be too hard IMO.

Jake

this, it's still a game after all, and I don't know if it's possible to have them differentiate (I'm also not a programmer).

You recall wrong.

Skyrim could keep NPCs on alert all the time, but then sneaking becomes useless, as does if they literally did an inch by inch search.

And you'd be the first here complaining about how sneaking is useless because as soon as you attack you're found.

Solution? Wait for better AI. Don't like it? Invent better AI or quit playing games with any stealth component.

Couldn't they just make the NPCs use more appropriate lines if they've taken damage recently?

"Someone shot me!"
x time passes
"I guess they must have left?"

So I take it you've never played any Commandos games?

It's a pity that games that came out almost 13 years ago have better working AI than what is offered now =/

That's probably the worst game to compare, Splinter Cell is in my opinion the worst game to bring up in terms of accurate stealth systems.

Re-play Pandora Tomorrow then come back.

I like this solution the best. Unfortunately, it'd also be the hardest way to fix it using mods, since we would need Bethesda's original voice actors.

I've heard, "I think we scared him off." I *think*. But I've also heard, I guess it was nothing, and it was funny, and it was inappropriate, I agree. Especially given the fact that I'd killed three out of four of the people there with arrows, and the last man standing, with an arrow in his chest and his buddies dead on the floor says, "I guess it was nothing." But given the size and complexity of the game, it's not that big a deal.

I think this would be a good change, with little effort for the developers.

They could even say "Someone's attacking me!" - This way it makes sense if they are attacked with magic/ranged/melee.

How does that change things? "I have 3 arrows in me, but I guess they left whatever"

Same thing as "I guess it was nothing"

Bethesda has never known whether it's coming or going when it comes to stealth; honestly, praise whatever gods you worship that they implemented something a little less [censored] than Oblivion.

I mean, logically, there should be two stealth tracs: one for whether they have no verification that a hostile entity may be lurking about, and one for when hostilities have been confirmed. But at least it's not, psychically know now and forever that someone's in the same general square mile as me.

The stealth system in this game is pretty stupid. The AI is bad, and once you have a high enough sneak level you can basically sit directly in front of a person while sneaking and they don't see you.

I like this solution too. It makes a lot of sense.

Not at all. "I guess it was nothing" implies they are idiots. "Someone shot me, but I guess they left" implies they are pragmatic and acknowledge someone shot them, but that they can't find them and since they are still alive the attacker probably left.

I agree that not any game that I can remember has ever had any other AI reaction then we see in Skyrim. It svcks and I was so hoping Bethesda was going to do something different here. I mean I saw a murder happen in the street and every character reacted to it appropriately. Why can't guys in dungeons do the same? "Everyone spread out and find the assailant." Have the guys look for more then 5 seconds. Guys that play that style will have no problem waiting it out or making a plan to take advantage of the spread out guards taking them one at a time. I can't believe there is no way to do it!

If after a minute or two if they can't find anyone have them group together say something along the lines of, "I couldn't find anyone, maybe they left" "ok well take your posts and keep an eye out." This whole, "Guess it was nothing" is ridiculous. Have them react to a fallen comrade in a appropriate manner. Maybe try to rive them, be sad about the lose...something....it's not nothing.

I think I am just going to re-role a mage/fighter. I look forward to the game that breaks that mold.

Because when you have three arrows in your chest, pretty obvious it wasn't nothing.

The people that are saying that it's difficult to program that AI are taling pure rubbish. Sorry but they are. I'm a game programmer and I've very easily made AI that doesn't actively stop looking for you.

Honestly your basic algorithym goes as such:

1. Am I actively searching?

No = carry on basic patrol pattern

Yes = set to actively searching and then just loop run search code

Put simply to NOT set them back to basic patrol all you do is NOT break them out of their active search code. I mean the fact that the guards do try to find you in certain instances means that the AI for searching is already there. So it;s just a case of setting a variable that says whether you have been attacked or not to true when you have been attacked. Then when you'd normally go back to patrol mode you just bypass that if 'attacked' equals true. It's about as easy as coding gets

I think after they have been hit they should stay in a high state of alert. I play multiplayer games; ( in Battlefield 3) I will shoot a guy from a distance ( a real person mind you) and he will exibit the same behavior: he will look around for a sec and take cover, but after awhile he will resume what he is doing, so the AI is not that "dumb"

The first time this happened it made me laugh so much that I had to pause the game and recover. Some new lines need patching in, or need to be taken out. Something needs to be fixed, because it really is quite silly

I'm sure Bethesda could create an amazing stealth centered AI if they were making an old school, top down, RT strategy game. Unfortunately, things do become a lot more complicated when you create a huge open world and give the player tons of different ways to deal and interact with the AI characters. Some people seem to think AI development is an easy thing for developers to do, you just tell the AI how to react, and they do it right? Unfortunately, its not anything even close to that simple.


That said i'm not saying Bethesda did an amazing job or that they couldn't improve upon it, because AI reaction to stealth attacks isn't too great, but creating an AI that would act realistically and still allow the player a decent chance of not being discovered is a very difficult task.

So in real life if you sneak up behind someone and stab them in the back they wouldn't immediately turn and find you? No in that situation I guess the person would be baffled as to where that sudden pain came from and go and take an indigestion tablet.

Surely stealth is about being STEALTHY. You know like using shadows. Sneaking up on someone is half the battle. You have to be able to get out quick when you attack them as well.

Why invent better AI? This is really basic stuff they aren't doing right. I am a game developer and I wouldn't want laughable AI going out in a 50 pound game because that's my baby out there being judged. It shows a distinct lack of integrity, self respect and worse, shows a complete lack of respect for the consumer. It's a 'Oh that'll do' attitude. Don't go putting stealth based gameplay in half baked and proclaim 'we're trying to make the best stealth game experience'. It's just not on. Honestly active searching for guards is the easiest form of AI because you work backwards from perfection.

It works exactly the same way as pathfinding does. Instead of the players position and the mouse click position you just pass in the players position and the guards position. Viola! You know have a guard that will hunt the player down mercilessly. Then it's just a case of dumbing it down with randomization. It really couldn't be simpler. Their stealth mechanics are a joke quite frankly.

Thief was superb. Commandos was superb. Those games came out in the 90s for godsake. I mean Jesus Christ Pacman used the algorithym I just described.

Why ask consumers to program a game when the developer quite clearly has the available tools to do it himself?

Edit:

Oh and I am simplifying a little with the AI as far as realistic is concered but to make it more realistic all you would have to do is used what is called 'Line of Sight' to determine if the player can be seen. If they can you just use the pathfinding to move toward them. If they can't you take the last point they were seen or heard and then get the guard to move to random points around that point to have them 'actively search' the area. After a short period they could either return to that point and continue patrolling as usual or if they see or hear the player again they can being the chasing code again. Again it's really not hard

Your memory is playing tricks on you. Thief used the exact same stealth mechanics as Skyrim. For heaven's sake, the guy that developed the stealth mechanics for Thief works for BETHESDA now. And guess who added all the things like light sources affect if you are detected, being able to snuff lights, shoot out lanterns, etc.? You might need to wipe off your Nostalgia brand rose-tinted glasses.

I think some of us have watched one too many episodes of Journey to the Bottom of the Sea (yah, that dates me alright).

There is no farking thing as computer AI. That is a invention of fiction and the wet dream of too many futurists.

People toss the term around as if it existed. All we have is a bunch of scripts based on events.
When you get that gaming AI you want, you can kiss your behind goodbye anyway. Welcome to Skynet.

Totally valid point. Yes the guards did have a habit of forgetting things but at the same time they would call for help and trip alarms when attacked. At that point that would not stop searching for you or at the very least you'd have more guards and all of them on high alert. So why is that not in this game?

Also, you've pretty much summed up why the stealth in Skyrim is terrible. If the same guy worked on this why are there no ways of putting out candles or turning off lights? It wouldn't effect performance one jot as the places are already dynamically lit so removing a light source would actually boost performance if anything. Their line of sight code is fundamentally broken as well. I've had times when I've been behind a guy or in a corner where noone can see even a single pixel of me but still somehow I'm 'detected'. Stealth mechanics need to be at the very least consistant. Even if they're broken they should be consitantly broken. In Skyrim you have no idea when you are hidden or not. Why not just rip the hidden mechanic direct from Thief? It worked brilliantly

Edit:

Just reread your post. I haven't delved into stealth that much but my understanding is that you can't snuff any light source out. I mean I've tried a few times but it just doesn't seem possible. Can you snuff out light sources?

Even if you can the detection mechanic just doesn't work and guards just don't react even close to how they should do