I hope they'll manage to improve the whole legal system, actually.

About this particular topic, I think that simply allowing open trade in some items and making other goods "black market stuff" would work better than any "stolen" tag.

Common sword? Sell to whoever you want, as long as he didn't see you stealing it.
Faction armor, skooma or similar stuff? Only fences or smugglers will trade in that stuff.

Just this very simple way to set things up would create a better and more immersive experience than a psychic stolen mark on objects.

There should be limitations on what you can do with stolen goods. Whether that is a limitation on Merchants (some are legitimate, some are shady) or what you can get for the item, or both is fine.

Not sure if the stolen goods should be marked that way in all towns, but maybe the better merchants are better at sniffing this out. Of course your Mercantile skill could overcome this if it is high enough.

However you should never be able to sell back to a merchant that you stole the item from, and maybe even banned from that merchant if you attempt until you make amends somehow either by deed, reputation or payout.

What I have a problem with are goods that are marked owned when they are clearly not. Like anything in an Abandoned Shack. Come on, it's abandoned for Pete's sake. Also, maybe not easily done, is houses that are taken over by murder or happenstance, have items in that house lose any ownership, or at least the containers do.

I don't know what to say about this save for the fact that Morrowind forever defined me as a Stealth character, and Oblivion did its very best to dissuade me (ultimately just making me feel sore). I also took the steal-everything-that's-not-nailed-down approach my first time through Morrowind, and paid for it dearly in later levels when trying to find traders to sell my stolen items to. I learned a system my first play-through that I've implemented ever since. Steal items from an NPC if and when it is impossible for them to buy or sell items of that class (weapons, armor, clothing, potions, ingredients, junk, gems, etc.).

As many have already said, there's no reason Skyrim couldn't apply the item/vendor identification and the stolen (T/F) modifiers from the previous two installments and use them to come up with some interesting and complex systems for handling theft and stolen item identification.

That being said, I agree with the idea that adding any degree of 'risk' to the game will cause the more cautious players to stack up their save files and duck out of every negative encounter in an attempt to try again with more favorable results. I would counter that by pointing out that law and punishment are not yet clearly defined for Skyrim (the game, not necessarily the province). With the splintering of armies and inevitable formation of minor factions, a single person's actions might not make as much of a difference to Skyrim's 'guards' as in Oblivion (unless it truly stood out). Who knows? Stealing an item and being caught by a 'Radiant Story' system might lead you on toward more stealth-related quests. Sort of like gaining a point of security in jail. The philosophy in Skyrim (and the Elder Scrolls) is skills improve as you use them, and what better of an example is this? The more lawless the territory, the more a wary mark might be inclined to put your thieving skills to good use (since you now owe him/her, after all).

I agree that an item's value and rarity should determine how easily traded it would be after a theft, and that common items should not carry a tag identifying them as stolen or looted. Perhaps a player's mercantile skill could influence whether or not an NPC realizes an item has been stolen, and (as mentioned in a previous post) the NPC's location and faction affiliation in relation (tion..tion..tion...) to the place/person from where/whom the item was stolen would also make a difference. I don't know how I feel about having to wait days/weeks/months for an item to become marketable again, but maybe after a large heist the authorities could be put on alert, and for several hours the stolen goods would be mentioned in 'rumors' dialogue with the locals? When they stop talking about it, you know the news has passed.

Thoughts, anyone? (Especially you, Bethesda.)


edit:

An afterthought: If Bethesda chose to implement the same system of vendor/item identification that they did in Morrowind, why not make that information available to the player so that they don't make a mistake? Sound silly, impractical, or unrealistic? Hmm... What about a wanted poster, offering a reward for the discreet recovery or return of valuable items? This way, not only would a player not be accidentally in trouble with the law for selling some innocuous item, but there would also be another quest-arc to make available through the Radiant Story technology! WHAAAA?!?!?!?!

edit 2:

The value/rarity of these items could determine how long they would stay available as mini-quests on the reward poster. Once the items disappear from the list and the seller gives up on seeing them again, it's safe to trade them.

I like the idea of a system where the longer the delay and greater the distance an item is sold the lower the chance that it is recognized. Likewise more valuable items are far more likely to be customized or unique and as a result almost impossible to sell without a fence.

I do disagree with some of the comments here. Just because it is a silver cup valued at 3 gold does not mean that it is unidentifiable. It could be an inscribed part of a set that was given to that character as a gift. Go a town or three away, almost no one will care. Try to sell it in the town that it was stolen, and the crime should be pinned on you.

Just because an item is common from our view (just one of the standard iron swords because they could not afford to give every iron sword in the game a distinct appearance), does not guarantee that it is bland and unidentifiable. There should always be a chance that it is recognized when the merchant notices a name engraved on it and says, "Who's ________?"

If anything make it so if you have a high enough speechcraft skill (assuming it merged with mercanile) and/or a high enough sneak skill you should be able to sell stolen goods to any merchant so long as it's not the merchant you stole from or a unique item. Also, if you've been to prison for theft they should be wary of your goods, and require a new speechcraft check.

If you steal an item, sell it to a merchant, and the original owner visits the merchant, he should tip him off. Afterwards the merchant might be reluctant to buy anything from you until you can earn his trust again.(He could also report it to the guards) Unique heirlooms from some royal families should be nearly impossible to offload though.

If I steal something in Riften, there should be a larger risk in selling the item in Riften and eventually being discovered. Head to Windhelm or Solitude, and hope the original owner doesn't travel much. Or that the shopkeeper doesn't remember you. Fame/Infamy might influence whether or not a shopkeeper remembers you were in his store.

Since the developers made the game that way? :rolleyes: This ain't rocket science...

I hope it's similar to what Fallout 3 had where you can sell stolen loot to merchants but you can't sell stolen loot to the same merchant that you originally stole it from. In simple terms if I steal a pair of Leather boot from the Best Defence I can't sell that particular item at the best defense but I can go to another store in the area and sell the item.

This argument doesn't make sense. The point of this thread is to give reasons to change and influence (or not to change and influence) Bethesda's decisions on the stolen items system. In other words, "That's how Bethesda did it" is not an argument, because we're arguing on how Bethesda should do it.

Likewise, awesome name

I'll suggest the same things I did on gamefaqs:

- Items don't have universal stolen flags, but rather a local flag. You steal an item, sell it to a merchant, and the previous owner of that item happens to go to that merchant to talk or peruse the selection of items. It would be interesting for him to have a chance of recognizing his item, talking to the owner, and having a bounty put on you for thievery.

- Not every store is a pawn store. Unless you have good standing with respectable merchants, they simple won't buy the random things from you because they have no idea who you are and where these items came from. You would have to seek out shady merchants, who will probably short you in the dealings, or you will have to seek out a thieves guild and use their fences.

- Whether people buy something depends on how much is stolen. If you steal every thing not nailed down in two houses in one city then there should be local repercussions. Namely local merchants will be suspicious of someone trying to sell them an entire dining set made of gold after very similar items were recently taken from notable homes.

If we're going for realism, perhaps there should be a time delay between your theft and the item becoming dangerous to sell (if you didn't steal it from the merchant, and didn't get caught). The owner has to realize it's gone, after all, and go to the guards and report it as stolen.

I always assumed that your character was the one deciding not to try to sell stolen items, rather than the merchants recognizing all stolen merchendise, although I admit that one loading screen suggests otherwise. Also, the fact that you couldn't sell stolen items to most shopkeepers served as an incentive to join the Thieves Guild, as such items were useless to you if you didn't intend to use them yourself.

I hope to see the mark removed. If a player can't determine they're stealing an item, let them face the consequence