I'm new so forgive me if this has been posted before, I couldn't find a search function.

I'm a veteran of both the TES series and numerous MMOs and I'm really hyped about ESO! One thing is causing me concern at the moment and that's racial bonuses.

I fear that racial bonuses will prove to be the biggest cause of PvP imbalance. DAoC took racial differences to the extreme and pvp was terribly imbalanced because of it. WoW tried to keep racial differences very minor but they still found that the traits were affecting people's choices of race and faction selection, so they removed racial traits altogether (a good move).

I predict that all the experienced MMO gamers will flock to whichever side is perceived to give the best racial pvp advantages no matter how minor the advantage and I hope that this will be considered during development.

I know that TES has a long history of racial bonuses and to be honest I never liked them in TES either. The racial traits affected my character creation choices when I would much rather have chosen a character for looks and culture, not for resistances or stat bonuses.

The only safe bonuses are the sort which cannot give a pvp advantage, for example xp bonuses for using a particular weapon type (although this will also affect people's choices by encouraging them to use one weapon when they might have preferred another, which I'm not sure is a good thing but at least it's relatively harmless).

If this concern has already been addressed then I would be pleased if someone could reassure me! Thanks

Don't think this has been voiced for this game yet. And as you're new to the forums; have a fishystick:

http://images.uesp.net/c/c4/Fishystick.jpg

(that's the first time I gave someone a fishystick, I feel like I deserve something equal to it, like a sweetroll or something)

I usually don't like racial bonuses for gameplay purposes. But I do like them for lore-purposes. Since for example High Elves are known for their arcane arts and Wood Elves for their archery and acrobatics I'd prefer to see an influx of High Elf mages and Wood Elf archers- with many exception of course- just as there are exceptions in the lore. But like you say it can cause problems, so game-wise I'm not sure what I think. Hopefuly there's a way to solve that- which I'll leave to the developers. But personally I've never given much thought to racial traits; I just pick what I think feels best.

They definitely need to balance the Racial bonuses, in one way or another, if they are included.

But the notion that every race should be equal is not something I am very fond of. Sure, it makes 1vs1 fights more fair, but it also makes big fights less interesting.

If every race have different bonuses, but all races have an adversary with bonuses that counters your own, that makes for interesting fights, where one race is better at defeating a certain race. This allows people to make tactics where the race of the players is accounted for as well. If they can pull that off, people won't choose a race because it is necessarily better, as all races have an adversary race that counters them.

And to add to that, the notion that every class should be "equal" is something that bothers me, as well - That all classes should have counters for every other class, so that no class is better against a specific class.

Every class should have special counters against a certain class, so that more tactical play is necessary to win a team fight.

That is my thoughts on the matter at least.

However, if ZOS don't think they can pull off racial bonuses, they should scrap it altogether.

1. Are we seriously [censored]ing about racials in PvP before the game is even out/everyone's even seen the racials/even tried the PvP?

2. WoW didn't remove racials from PvP, what are you talking about? They're still in right now and they're just as horribly broken as they ever were because Blizzard likes to balance things in a way that makes them money through race changes/rolling alts/faction changes. DAOC PvP was fine, especially compared to WoW's.

You've cast Lv2. Confusion on me here, bro.

I think you are absolutely right. Racial bonuses are inherently not balanced. Honestly though I'm rather concerned with balance issues as a whole for this game. all this freedom means there will be some choices that are intrinsically better than others.

Although I'm glad the races are so much different. Sure you might have some imbalance, but I still plan to play my Khajiit even though I'd more likely prefer the bonus for Bretons. I think some will see stats and go for it, but that just means you have to know how to effectively deal with the factions.

For example, against the Ebonheart pact, just use lightning damage.

Nords- Ice resist

Dunmer- Fire resist.

I think this gives EP a good advantage against a wide range, but target them with lightning and you'l be cooking along in no time.

ALSO

I like how the significantly different races will strongly affect each sides war stretegy. I think certain battle plans will be more effective for certain alliances than others. I think this will make it very interesting.

The aldmeri dominion for instance doesn't have a traditional melee warrior type. This means that they will probably be more sneaky, hit & run, and castery. Where as the Daggerfall Brovenant will have much more zerg rushing methinks with a solid two warrior races, and those mf'ers with mad resistance.

Ebonheart pact will have probably the most balanced combat options, so will have to use their strengths effectively to counter the other two more specialized alliances.

I think it'll spice things up

My apologies, I was thinking specifically of the human perception skill which was overpowered in pvp. I actually thought they'd removed more racial traits than that, anyway sorry!

I don't think that DAoC pvp was fine, though. Aside from the massive population imbalance (which can be easily fixed via a queueing system and I'm sure some form of that will be implemented) a group of Hibs was always superior in AOE abilities, hence the tendency to zerg in large numbers. Zerging is fun but not challenging and ideally I would like pvp to be viable on a grp-vs-grp and 1v1 scale as well as large scale battles.

You don't know that it currently isn't, though. Nobody has even seen a list of all of the racials yet.

Until the actual numbers are released, there is no way of knowing how strongly racials will affect pvp aspects of the game. From what has been revealed, it seems like there are going to be four passives and an ultimate ability. Though the racial ultimates do seem impressive, it also means that we give up our other skill ultimates that seem to be considerably more powerful. The passives so far seem to be a weapon skill experience increase, a resistance increase, an offensive skill line increase, and a passive regeneration buff to one of the three main stat pools. So far, there does not seem to be an overpowered ability that will cause people to flock to one particular race or faction based on these abilities. Their effects so far, seem minor.

Actually there is a skill overview of night blade class and ebonheart racial skill lines




For example blood Elfs have
Increased magica and stamina(passive)
Increased exp with duel weapons(passive)
Fire resisted (passive)
Increased damage from fire spells(passive)
Summon ancestral guardian(ultimate skill)


We do not know the percentages of these increases but I have heard that they will be very minimal probs between 5-10% only so not really enough to effect pvp( dark Elfs might make better dragon knights for the slight boost to damage)


All races will have a ultimate skill, a resistant passive, and a passive that gives a small bonus to a certain weapon type and 2 other Passives.

Blood...elves?

It has been covered a lot, but no probs. Search bar is top right, for future reference.

It is a valid concern. Racials are the only thing unique to each alliance, so of course there'll be balance issues. If done right though, it can become something of a Rock Paper Scissors deal. Each faction will have strengths and weaknesses, so it is still possible to balance. It's just hard.

Yeah, I'd check on the official site, or on uesp.

Dunmer, Altmer, Bosmer or Dark elves, high elves, and wood elves.

No blood elves.

Pretty sure it was just a typo, as he does use it correctly (well, almost) later. Even still though. Downright heretical.

Rock, Paper, Scissor - exactly what I was trying to explain earlier, but didn't think about that game. Silly me.

Yes, it is hard to pull off for the Developer, but the rewards for pulling it off is a much more varied and interesting PvP, where tacticians who account for the Racials might overpower a seemingly greater force! The more tactical play that is introduced, the better!

meant dark Elfs not sure how or why I wrote blood.

Thanks very much for the replies and reassurances!

I was probably overly nervous because of the historically very high racial advantages in past TES game. Somebody mentioned 5-10% and to me this sounds dangerously imbalanced for both PvE and PvP. That is the kind of advantage that will see dunmer heavily favoured because they can do more damage so they become the obvious choice. By comparison another popular MMO which I won't name again has racial advantages of only 1% and even then they tend to be indirect rather than bonuses to direct damage.

A rock-paper-scissors scenario is good between different classes but balancing races throws another dimension of complexity into the mix and therefore increases the difficulty of getting it right. I didn't wish to be seen as complaining though, as you say it's still too early to tell and perhaps I'm only worrying because I don't understand the skill system properly yet! For example, I wasn't aware that you had to choose one Ultimate - racial or class - so thanks for that Sildre.