Okay, you saw the spoiler warning, consider yourself warned.

Just in case.

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So, what do people think about the revelation Elder Lyons' entire crusade to reform the Brotherhood of Steel was a big fat honking failure? He travelled all across the United States, conquered the Super-Mutants and Enclave, wiped out the Pitt, and even had half of his men desert in order to try to get away from the Western BoS' orthodoxy.

And Arthur Maxson, the boy he RAISED no less, ends up being a Counter-Revolutionary who turns the Eastern Brotherhood into more or less a carbon copy of the orginal organization.

....

Sigh.

Well, its actually closer to the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel but it's interesting how Fallout 3 is a lot more ambiguous now. A Good Karma Lone Wanderer basically installed a military feudal dictatorship in the Capital Wasteland.

An expansionist one at that.

The NCR is going to be screwed that's for sure. The Eastern Brotherhood is leagues bigger, and equipped with even better technology, when they went to war with the western branch. There also expansionist, control alot of land, and are ruthless as [censored],.

The Impression I got was a little differnt. I think there in between the old Eastern and Western brotherhood in attitude. They still recuit wastelanders, and try to protect people, they just put there original mission first, and are FAR more ruthless then before. I like them.

Speculation of mine from the Future of Lyons BoS in 2013.

I wasnt a hundred percent right on what it would look like, but the West Coast should be on notice.

The Brotherhood is back!

"All hail His Grace, Arthur of House Maxson, First of His Name, King of the Capital Waste and the Brotherhood , Lord of the East Coast, and Protector of the Codex."

The new BoS really gives off the Imperium of Man with Arthur Maxson being the Emperor. Which is awesome.

I'm not finished with the game but it actually does make me hope there's an option to destroy this Brotherhood. Seeing Arthur Maxson betray the ideals of the Eastern Coast Brotherhood of Steel makes him a deliciously hateable figure. One I'm going to personally enjoy sending to die along with Ashur and other members representative of the worst of the BoS.

I was a big fan of the East Coast Brotherhood but, weirdly, I think this element of tragedy works for them.

Elder Lyons and his daughter are much more interesting as the Doomed Moral Victors.

A game set to take the Capital Wasteland back from its dictators also seems like it could be really fun.

LOL, you are aware Mason still insists on upholding some the virtues that Lyron taught him, and that he really doesn't like what he thinks is necessary for the good of everyone? Furthermore, the East Coast Brotherhood was in tatters after losing Elder Lyons, and Sarah Lyons. It was Arthur who put the pieces togther, reorganised, and turned the Brotherhood into a force to be reckoned with it.

He also, unlike Lyons, brokered a peace with the Brotherhood outcasts, bolstering the East Coast Brotherhood further.

Arthur is a hero. A man who did far more for the Brotherhood then what the lyons did,

Ashur is also a noble figure, with good motivation, very good end results, but brutal methods.

If you say so.

The genocide of ghouls and Super Mutants and Synths say otherwise. I imagine I'm treating him as a far less noble figure than it appears but I can't help but note the contrast between the Brotherhood and Minutemen as well as the fact the Railroad (perhaps rightly) thinks taking them both down is the only way to save the Commonwealth.

They're a little too much like the Institute to be comfortable with for my tastes.

It's not. It's an entire nation.


It isn't. The NCR controls the equivalent of pre-War California, while the Eastern division controls... Well, the Capital Wasteland and the Commonwealth?


Yeah, except said technology is only as good as its ability to withstand infiltrators and artillery shelling. Maxson has a good thing going, but first he would have to be able to project power to California - by which point the NCR will be able to return the favor, as it had with the West.

Not only did Lyon's fail on all those accounts but his Brotherhood was so lacking in leadership that a teenager with a Macklemore haircut took over, a teenager who didn't even fight against the Enclave or the Super Mutants.

Lyon's brotherhood also genocided mutants. The ghouls in fallout 3 in underworld said the brotherhood shoots them on sight.

The only difference between the west coast brotherhood and the east coast is that the east coast wanted to help people too. Otherwise they are identical.

Also to the person who said the east coast is a bigger brotherhood, I would like to know where they got that idea. In fallout 3 all signs pointed to Lyon's brotherhood to be much smaller than the rest of the brotherhood.

And Also I'm laughing that the maxson kid was turned into king Arthur. I predicted that exact scenario like 4 or 5 years ago, and just to prove how bad Bethesda writing is, they went ahead and did that.

Neo-Medievalist knight group chooses child to lead them based on hereditary birthright.

Funny how that works.

It was a major plotline in Fallout: New Vegas that the West Coast Brotherhood is all but exterminated and as far as the Mojave Brotherhood of Steel knows, they could be the last chapter period.

I think a big part of the Brotherhood's reversal is the uproar about how fundamentally they'd changed in Fallout 3.

Personally, it's no skin off my nose either way. Thus far in the game, I haven't been railroaded into their order, which means I take the option to work with them, but not for them. All I know about the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 comes from Danse's quest and the Lost Patrol - which ended in bloodshed and Danse offering me, the General of the Minutemen, underling status under him, a prissy Knight, and a Scribe I can't be sure isn't deliberately killing her patients. Also, "You get your own Power Armor!" I wanted my Sole Survivor to shoot back "Buddy, I've got two of those stuffed in a broom closet."

I dunno, ever since New Vegas I'm more then happy to tell the Brotherhood to piss up a rope.

The only thing I'll give the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U1KUlCTxWc.

I have to admit that was pretty cool.

I mean was it really any surprise? Its pretty clear in Fallout 3 they were setting Arthur up to succeed Elder Lyons eventually.

Once we learned the name of the Prydwen though, that sealed the deal for me.

Are you bloody kidding me?

The West Coast IS IN RUINS!!!! The East Coast has COMPLETE control over the capitol wasteland, ruling it like a feudal kingdom. They have enough power, and recruits to mount a full scale invasion/expedition of the common wealth

You cant even compare them. The East Coast is a large military organisation that rules entire kingdoms, while the West Coast is some people in a hidden bunker in the Mojave.

And LOL, people claiming Arthur is a King arthur wannabe. More like a genocidal Space Marine Primarch or God Emperor of Mankind expy.

Of course, it's really a moot point since it's unlikely the NCR and East Coast Brotherhood will ever clash. It's a long way from DC to California.

The Mojave isn't the west coast. They are one tiny cell of the west coast that is cut off from the rest.

Where the hell do you think Christine came from? She was sent by brotherhood officials and the circle of steel to hunt down Elijah. We don't meet the circle of steel in the Mojave, or the main brotherhood in new Vegas.

Christine has no affiliation with the Mojave, otherwise shed know her lover Veronica is there. There's obviously much more brotherhood of steel out there.

That doesn't change anything about the point he made, its made very clear l in NV that the west coast BoS is in ruins in general, having lost over 6 bunkers to the NCR, and generally being out numbered.

How is basic foreshadowing bad writing?

Would Fallout 4.5 having the Legion collapse due to Caesar's death, and the NCR falling apart due to various resource and government problems be bad writing just because everyone predicted it would happen after NV came out?

No, because they said all of those things might happen in NV because they wanted to take the story that way to begin with.

Not to mention the fact that the Brotherhood's HQ at Lost Hills isn't exactly a secret anymore. Hell the NCR turned the whole area into a state. The Brotherhood of Steel in the West is being dikeed on hard for their hubris.

1. They don't know if the rest still exist since NCR controls all of California and...well, the Brotherhood lives in Californ

2. Uhm, what makes you think she DOESN'T know Veronica is there? The BoS Mojave Chapter kind of moved to their new base after the cluster**** at Helios.

For all of the traditionalist fans who love New Vegas, the denial over the Brotherhood's bad state is really surprising. NCR doesn't have power armor but it doesn't really need it with Van Graff missle launchers, grenades, artillery, anti-Material rifles, miniguns, mininukes, and other weapons which can pierce Brotherhood power armor.

But yes, the Lyons Brotherhood has a real dark side. Given they're now genocidal against nonhumans (unlike the Midwest Brotherhood of Steel which was egalitarian), that means Underworld and Herbert/Bob are probably no more in the Capital Wasteland. They also have a disturbing Nazi-like undertone with the "purity test" you're administered when you join.

1. Have you ever had sixual relations with a nonhuman?

2. Would you hesitate killing any enemy of the Brotherhood?

Albeit, it's not so much Nazis as they're a more discriminating version of the Enclave now. Nonhumans are just ghouls, Synths, Super Mutants, and probably Sentient Deathclaws if they ever meet them.

The Lyons Brotherhood has always been anti-mutant though. In Fallout 3 they were taking potshots at the Ghouls in Underworld for kicks.

It's disappointing that the Lyon's chapter didn't stay Lyon's course of reform, but it's not surprising that it didn't either. The end of Fallout 3 saw the Brotherhood in uncontested control of the water distribution to the entire Capital Wasteland as well as the equipment and materials of the Enclave. As the franchise tagline often comments "War Never Changes". The acquisition of advanced technology is just one more resource to be exploited and controlled...the Brotherhood aren't doing anything the Old World powers they so casually criticize hadn't done. The resources in question change, but the overall motives do not.

Ashur did what was necessary to maintain order relative safety. He was not the worst ol the BoS had to offer -

Though, I am curious what Beth's future plans are for the Fallout universe. I love their East Coast spin but I would like to see a return to the West Coast desert wastelands

I think there's ample room for both, personally.

New Vegas seems to be the West Coast swan song. It establishes the total edge of NCR control (Ask around, and you'll know that the NCR has not only bled itself white, but stretched itself thin just maintaining a hold to the Colorado), and establishes that the middle of the country is effectively "No Man's Land" - the Legion's future seems written in stone as a crumbling edifice that will not long survive its progenitor.

The East Coast is the same kind of quagmire that the Legion was born out of. Thus far in the East the only major power players are the Brotherhood and the Institute, both more concerned with material tech gains then actual territory. I've not played all through Fallout 4 yet, so there may be other factions that rise up - the idea behind the Minutemen is a good one, I feel.

I think the biggest advantage of the East Coast is it's "No Man's Land."

There were a lot of complaints, essentially, that Fallout 3 either didn't take place on the West Coast or that since it DIDN'T that there's no new factions but only a bunch of migrated Western factions which made no sense. I think Fallout 4 struck a nice balance with the Railroad, Institute, Minutemen, and so on adding to Fallout's lore without losing track of its roots.

I also tend to agree the West Coast is kind of iffy. While it would be awesome to visit California sometime, well, it's supposedly NICE now.

Or at least nice in the same way Megaton and Rivet City are--no starvation, raiders, and non-psychotic residents.

That was my biggest criticism with Fallout 2, honestly.

It didn't feel post-apocalyptic.