So I was almost at level 8 and getting up my Barter to 70. For me to do this, I almost had to put in 10 points per round to get it there by level 8. Now I am surprised to find out that Strong Back is also a level 8 trait. Now why I thought it was higher, I have no idea.

So for someone to carry more items, wouldn't Strong Back be the better choice? Unless you are carrying over 100 items at 1 point of weight, that would make it 50 points then. But are you really carrying 100 items? I thought I was going to get both perks, but now seeing they are both level 8 perks and you can only pick one or the other, and then most likely I will be picking something else up at level 10, 50 points sounds a heck of a lot more better than picking up stuff that weigh 2 points of weight or less.

Most times, I would say I am carrying what 20 or say 50 things that weigh 2 or less. So that would make them weigh 50 units if it's 2 points. Most things so far I have been carrying is 1 or less. So that would mean the end result of 50 things being carried is 25 weight. So getting Strong Back would still mean you get 25 more to carry.

Unlessy you are carrying massive amounts of ammo, like in the 1000s of each type, is Pack Rat really worth it? My Barter skill is always low, and I don't want to tag it. So to get it up to 70 needs lots of skill points to be put into it. I am shure, I could have put better skill points else where, like lock picking, science for computer hacking, sneaking or other skills.

So what do you guys think?

Over half my character's carried weight is ammo and food. Each weighs 1 or less per unit.

If your gonna play hardcoe were everything has a weight then its good, otherwise not so much, most the stuff it helps with in non-hardcoe already is weightless

I am playing hardcoe. Then again, I don't carry much food. I have a few places I call home or "base of operations" so I have food stored there. So if it's time to eat, I go there. If I go on a trek, I carry about 5 gecko steaks and that seems to be enough, so why carry more food than that, I don't understand.

I do have trouble finding ammow right now, so maybe that is why I don't think I need it, I don't have alot of ammo on me. I seem to be carrying lots of armour and weapons from my enemies, so the 2 weight or less, seems less important.

Pack Rat is one of the best perks in the game in my opinion, that and Jury Rigging is what I went for first of all.

It's immensely useful to me

Alchohol, water, sunset sasperillas and ammo take up most of my inventory and using hardcoe no stimpacks and as little fast travel as possible with all my characters.
I would say it's not useless but also not really needed for my playstyle either, maybe after a few more levels my level 8 melee character will get it, or my 19 character gun specialist will though.

So how much are is your character really carrying at level 8? Can you guys please as of right now, post what your character is carrying of stuff 2 or under you are carrying at the moment.

This way I can see because my playstyle maybe so different, I don't see it. Basically I am asking is, are people really carrying more than 100 weight of stuff that is under 2 or less? If not, wouldn't it be better to have Strong Back instead. So for Pack Rat to be better than Strong Back, you need to be carrying more than 100 weight of stuff that weigh 2 or less.

My hardcoe chars inventory went down by about 40 after I got this, but I find it hard to leave even a bent tin can alone!
Would be useful for hardcoe if Survival wasn't a waste of points, perks aside.

Pack of Sigarettes, Carton of Sigarettes, Buffalo Gourd Seed, Purified Water, Dirty Water, 9mm Pistol, Barrel Cactus Fruit, Vodka, Wasteland Omelet, Scotch, Whiskey, Weapon Repair Kit, Moonshine, Sunset Sarsaparilla, Nuka-Cola, Beret, Biker Goggles, .357 Revolver, Dynamite, Long-Fuse Dynamite, Frag Grenade, Chopper.

These items are ones I regularly pick up to make money, or always have in my inventory. Pretty much all explosives you toss or place also weigh less than 2, most food, most drinks, most clothing, some smaller weapons, drugs that are not weightless...

In general, a [censored]ton of stuff.

For me it just depends on the character I'm using. I think Strong Back have 5 STR and 5 END requirements which I don't have on my character. I do however have Barter capped, and the Pack Rat did actually help a fair bit with clearing up a bit more inventory space for me so to speak.

I didn't get Pack Rat til much later, but...



Until I got to the Motel at Novac, I hadn't found a place to store my stuff. And the combination of being a chronic looter + the new crafting system wanting dozens of items meant that from Primm til Novac I was running at around 170/220. After selling stuff at vendors. It was painful how much stuff I ended up leaving behind.

I didn't do a careful before & after check when I did grab Pack Rat, but I think I lost at least 50-60 lbs of weight. It was great! (I have many different foods, 20+ sasparilla, all sorts of crafting junk like scrap metal, plenty of Weapon kits and Doctor bags, etc. Pack Rat means that I can either carry more of them, or not keep as close a watch on how many of them I have. I can pick up a great deal more while I'm out wandering. Great perk for, well, a pack rat. )

If playing for a realistic character, Strong Back makes things insanely unrealistic. Pack Rat is explainable. Generally I just manage my space, though.

Its more realistic that being better at packing makes things weigh less rather than being strong allowing you to carry more?

There are a LOT of items that weigh 2lbs or less but are worth a good deal of caps so Pack Rat can certainly be a big improvement, do note the level requirement is the minimum you could wait tell level 30.

for your hardcoe chacters i think is a important one to get if you plan on have a surplus of ammo with you or plan for long treks in the waste.

I am still not to shure about this, but I am building up my character so I have 70 Barter just in case I will take it. I think I will take it from what you guys say. I am surprised nobody said anything about Strong Back being better.

It depends entirely on how you play. If you typically pick up *lots* of low-weight items (and/or you're playing hardcoe and all your normally weightless stuff isn't), it can be better than Strong Back.

Of course, being such a big klepto, I ended up with both perks. :celebration:

I think that is why I am not so much of a klepto as I use to be in Oblivion or Fallout 3. I would carry too much. I guess I am so use to not carrying much light weight items, that it doesn't seem any good. Maybe now I can be the Sanatary Engineer and pick up all those cans and sell them now.

PACK RAT for carrying lots of small stuff = perfect for player tinkerers.

STRONG BACK for carrying big, heavy things = perfect for burly warriors in heavy armor with beefy weapons.

I remember I had to use Raul as my ammo bag when I played an Energy Weapons character.
Ammo weighed a lot for me and since my weapons wasted so much ammo per shot it could have been really useful to have this perk.
Unfortunately I focused on other skills and couldn't get my Barter skill up to get the perk.

If you want to use energy weapons, pack rat tends to become a really big help once you use the bigger once. Those things svck the life out of batteries like Jar-Jar out of Episode 1.

Based on my play style, level 10 and 12 perks are unimpressive. I tend to take toughness at level 6 and 8 to gain that +6DT. As a result, I am interested in Pack Rat and Strong back for my level 10 and 12 traits. Right now I am playing a character that I enjoy, but I am learning more and more about living in the wasteland and am really thinking about starting all over again. For example, I like to role play and chose to put points into speech, but because they are just "checks," that means I auto succeed/fail my challenges. Also, most of the tiems I have been asked to make a speech challenge of 50 or higher, I didn't want to or already had another "easy way" to complete it. As a result, I am finding that having speech over, say, 25 or so is unnecessary.

Barter challenges, on the other hand, are nice. With a charisma at 6 and the "Good Nature" trait you can start with speech and barter real close to 25, with 7 luck you can. i still like the idea of picking one tag skill as your combat trait, one as repair, and a third where ever you like. If you tag barter, with the build I listed in charisma/luck/good nature, you can start with 40 barter. Level 2 you can dump some points into lock pick to bring it up to 25. Level 3+ you can dump points into your main combat skill. Finally, with 40 initial barter you don't haveto dump very much to get it to 70. As i said, I don't plan on taking it, if I want to, until level 10 or 12 anyway. However, between ED-E and a 2ed companion, it really isn't that useful. they can pack most of your "junk" at that point. If you get hungry or something, just open up their inventory. Infac, as I type this and think about it, it does look kind of useless in the long run.

I've never actually taken the pack rat trait, but I doubt it would help me much. Sure, on my first play through I'd carry 150 pounds of food or ammo, but now I know more about what I need to carry with me at all times, where I can find food or water in emergencies, and how quickly I become starved or dehydrated I rarely carry more than 5 gecko steaks, 3 bottles of purified water, and between 150-300 rounds of ammo for assault rifles or smgs, around 150 for rifles, and around 80 for shotguns. That can keep me to around 60 pounds of equipment all together instead of 180 I mostly carried with me all the time in my first play through. Besides all that, it's more fun when I'm stock in a precarious position and suddenly find myself short on ammo or out of food or water with dehydration or starvation setting in.