I'll probably regret this, but here's another article about RPGs:

http://j-u-i-c-e.hubpages.com/_esforum/hub/rules-of-immersion.

Contrary to appearances, this is not a troll thread. As always, read and comment. I'm sure you'll find plenty to disagree with. I have 50% flame resistance, so feel free to speak your mind.

you will regret this prepare for battle my friend that said its in our nature.....its tradition....if someone disagrees with my opinion then its war!!! i say war!!! lol

LOL. I love a good discussion and I'm not easily ruffled. Good times had by all.

then may the spilling of forum blood begin..id also like to.........(puase)......KHAAAAAN KHAAAAAAAN

Editing this do to a large amount of jerks quoting me in a very rude fashion.

Nah. Just hit a rough patch. Happens every time a new game comes out.

for my part in this id say that its always a bad brewing of constructive criticism , general hate, praise, and fan boying.the critics make their voices heard, then the fan boys respond like its a mating call,then once that war begins people will come and praise the game , and then the haters respond to the praiser and now we have the prefect base for a blood bath...pretty soon its pc this consoles that......and then eventually hungry donner arrives with a magma blast and shuts it down....then after a few hours it begins again

yep alot of us werent around to remeber but ive heard that morrowind got it pretty bad from the daggerfall generation as oblivion got it bad from the morrowind generation...see its tradition

Really like this article. It basically brings up issues I have with many games, and brings to light some of the personal shortcomings I have with (the still excellent) Skyrim.

Personally, the way I see it, Immersion is one of the most important things a game can have. Why?

• It makes the world seem more "real"
  
• It creates a connection between the world, and the player-character. Player Vs. Enviornment or Player Vs Self conflicts are impossible without this connection. If a player feels like he "doesn't belong" in the world, or the world feels fake, then they can never have that connection.
  
• It invites exploration, and entices players to act more dynamically and naturally

Now the problem is, this seems to be a "fruit" that many games fail to grasp. Yet at the same time many older games seem to achieve this. Why is that? I feel like it's because our imagination is our greatest tool, and its how a good book can just svck you in. Similarly, older games had this effect too - there was enough "sensory deprivation" to allow immersion to happen easily and natural for the time. Now, it's much harder to get right.

I honestly think the best way to tackle it in a modern game is to design EVERYTHING to be intuitive. What does that mean? It means, everything feels natural and in-place. This includes RPG backend mechanics, includes quest design, how the player interacts with the world, includes how the interface and movement feels (is it natural, or do you feel like you are a camera on legs?), etc. What developers sometimes fail to realize, when you design games that are intuitive and engaging, they can be as complex as can be. Complexity is NOT a barrier. It is only a barrier if you think of game design in terms of an engineer (an easy pitfall when many designers have that engineering mind with programming backgrounds). Then complexity is a big issue.

That's where the problem lies - design needs to be natural, easy to read and intutive. You can have the most complex system on earth as long as it feels like it makes sense, is natural to use and immersive. It's how people who traditionally are not gamers can connect with a game, where the game feels less like interacting with a set of hard code and hard rules, and more like interacting with belivable fiction on a moving screen. It's why the Wii was so successful - it is intuitive to use. And it's why Apple is successful as well - something Bethesda partially failed to pick up. It's not their aesthetic style that makes apple so successful (see: what bethesda designed the visuals of the perk menu system after), it's the fact that everything about Apple from product to product to menu and OS organization is designed to be natural and intuitive to use as soon as you interact with it.

If you can do the above, but apply it to your game design to create a natural, fluid game experience, not only will it be accessable to anyone despite the backend complexity, but it will achieve immersion, garunteed. Only a small part of Immersion has to do with the visual aspects. A much forgotten part of immersion is all about how the player interacts with the world and the gameplay. That is how you make a world feel truely real, and truely easy to pick up and get swallowed into.

The downward spiral has being heading down the drain on these forums since the release of Oblivion.

while i adore oblivion it is true sigh people say they cant play the game without mods

I somehow think I am partly to blame for why you created this thread, Magician.

great article that brings up the core issue.

that's why, imo, the lockpicking, smithing and alchemy skills are fine, but, need further advancement.

it's also why i don't like the trend of rpg's- they are going too far towards the actiony-side with player orientation vs. rpg/rules with character orientation. the balance is key.

So, first the article says this: "As far as I can tell, there's no "scientific" definition of an RPG... We all have different reasons for playing, different experiences, and different observations."

And then it says this: "I don't think too many people will argue (though inevitably some will) that most people playing a RPG want to immerse themselves in another life. They want to step out of their current life and enjoy the view from a different perspective."

Right there is where it lost me (and, yes, I read the rest of the article). I think that one of the biggest sources of disagreement is between those who are seeking immersion and those (like me) who aren't.

I only skimmed though the article but when I say immersion I talk about 2 things really:

1. The storyline in gripping, the characters are ones I can care about or at least hate passionately (but not for being planks of wood with one line). A game that makes me keeps playing to find out more of the story, that 30 mins more (for the 5th time) to get that little bit further (and not because of a dire lack of save points). To me Skyrim lacks both these things, the fact I enjoy the game more by not progressing though the story speaks volumes and characters it's fairly universal the issues with them, lack of reaction, dialogue, character everything, theres only one character I really like and thats Wynladriah (spelling) maybe cause I empathise with her forgetfulness and head filled with too many thoughts.

2. Little details that keep me in the world, I've posted elsewhere a long list of unimmersive details in the 30min intro, amoung which are vanishing characters, vanishing corpses, characters outside of that area you'd think would care about the people there simply don't (ie Falkreath is no more bothered by the loss of helgen then any other hold, no one in rorikstead seems to remember Lokir and they must have torn down where he once lived, if Ralof is choosen the blacksmith never mentions his nephew). Things like that, which make the world more believable, I'm not left wondering what the hell happened etc.

I know alot mean it as being able to live the life of a smith or miller in a game, but the 2 above to me are paramount before anything else is done, as it is, roleplaying a miller just leaves you pushing a rock with no wheat or tusk to grind and no product made, roleplaying a farmer means stealing all thier crops and selling it to the original farmer for the full value. The only thing I'd have like to seen done to smithing is being able to go learn how to make armors from various smiths over the current perk system. Lockpicking does provide one sensory element but ignores feedback or sound, I rather Skyrims to oblivions Xray eyes sideview though and adding either of those would only make the minigame even easier.

I guess I'd fall closer to a "Role" gamer, but it's not the list presented of issues that don't exist in the game that prevents my immersion or enjoyment, its simply down to the lack of choice to deal with things, frequently leaving you between the choices of be evil or ignore the bad thing happening to a town.

There are a lot of different kinds of immersion and ways to achieve them. Sensory immersion is one, motility is another--being able to move around in the world and interact with it in a natural, intuitive fashion. The imagination is really the engine of immersion, which is why its equally possible to be immersed in a book or a piece of music. Sensory devices, intuitive user interfaces, logical design are all aids: they eliminate barriers to immersion.

It was a group effort, I assure you.

Skyrim does lean a bit toward the actiony side in a lot of things, but it also implemented a lot of things that are intended purely for RP. We have to be careful about how we use terms like "action" and "RPG" when talking about Skyrim because there aren't any hard and fast lines. Is chasing butterflies an "action" element or a RP element? Is the FPS crowd playing Skyrim because it lets them chase butterflies? That's handled in a visual, RT fashion, but it exists solely for RP. The mechanic is "actiony" but there's no reason to include it except to enhance RP. I prefer to see the process as an iterative one that swings back and forth. Right now they're focusing on enhancing one aspect because the technology finally allows them to do it convincingly. I won't be at all surprised if the next game features all sorts of enhancements to quests, NPC AI, dialogue, factions and other elements that need a bit of shoring up. In fact, I won't be surprised if the whole industry moves more in this direction over the next few years. Most people are satisfied with existing graphics. They want a little more meat. (The opinions of 90% of the forum-users not-withstanding.)

Immersion is a very charged term for a lot of people. Would you care to elaborate on your reasons for playing? I would classify the following activities as immersive: exploring a virtual world (visual and auditory), executing a complex strategy (chess, strategy games), following a narrative (reading a good book or listening to a good public speaker). You could add many other activities. Immersion is 'losing yourself'. I've always thought of games as immersive activities. I've always thought of RPGs as an immersive activity where the goal was to 'become' someone else. That's what differentiates it from games like Chess, Poker, and RISK. How would you define it?

I couldn't go into that particular aspect but I know what you mean: when the world doesn't respond to you rationally or intuitively. Those are also aspects of immersion and important elements of RP. A good narrative is immersive. If you complete a quest for an NPC and they don't behave differently toward you afterwards, in a fashion congruent with your acts, that's immersion-breaking. It's like someone talking and then stopping mid-sentence. You're left sitting there going "...and? Where's the rest?"

Narrative is actually quite a complex topic when it comes to RPGs, so I won't go into it, but all those little 'oversights' have more to do with limited time and budget than neglect. Sure, they could have included more finishing touches but at the expense of completing more important game elements. Game design is very much an 80/20 activity: you do the 80% that has to be done and try not to worry about the other 20%. This tendency is even more pronounced in RPGs than other games because they are an order of magnitude more labor-intensive than most.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Things will get better in a few months.

That's when most of the players that are new to TES will move on to something else.

I expect to get flamed for this... but whatever... I'll still be here 3 years from now... and most of you won't be.

the forums has been like this for the greater part of 2011 to be honest, its where the "negetive/positive" dichotomy reared its head and turned up the dial into hatred for opinions lolol. its eehh.....Cool down? sorta? I think? maybe? I think we just need a DLC to blind side us ;p.

Other than that my thoughts have already been spoken by prior posters.

it's funny "immersion" is brought up because it makes me feel how you probably feel when i say "actiony rpg." i get irritated with some of the things people say cause a loss of "immersion", lol. it comes down to individual preferences and definitions.

dialogue and character development are fine, but, on my list of immersion qualities they are definitely on the bottom rung. doing a mini game doesn't hurt my immersion factor one bit. neither do load screens or fast travel and a number of other aspects that others do feel they need for immersion. however, using a keypad and a mouse absolutely lose my immersion. i must use a controller with pc games.

for me the biggest factors are being able to be a character in these great beth worlds and landscapes and the freedom to live in them.

Some of them will stay. Some of the long-time BGS fans will go back to Oblivion or Morrowind or Fallout: New Vegas or whatever they call home. Everyone was new at one point.

It'll cool down. I think it's already cooled off a little.

Immersion is always a tricky thing to talk about because it means something different for every person. For example, I have no problem role-playing my way around a sloppy game mechanic. I have so many self-imposed rules in place already that things like 'OP crafting', 'useless' lockpicking perks, and shallow quests don't bother me. These things absolutely drive other people mad, and I understand why, but I'm honestly so busy with my own RP goals that they just get lost in the shuffle and don't phase me. I could never abuse crafting, for example, because my own RP rules prevent it. I have to wait for hours every time I mine ore or craft a weapon. It takes my character forever to do those sorts of things so 'spamming it' just isn't an issue. I only found out about it by reading other people's posts. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed if it bothers other people, though.

Narrative is another one of those things that people have strong opinions about in RPGs. I didn't really notice any difference between the depth of Oblivion's quests and the depth of Skyrim's quests but apparently they're in decline. Maybe I'm just too self-centered but my character is usually so focused on her own private agendas that one-dimensional NPCs, limited post-quest reactions, limited quest branching, etc., barely registered. Sure, I love deep characters, intelligent AI, and diverse quest options (that's the stuff I get anol about in my own mods) but I get most of my narrative 'nutrition' from the story I create around my character. All of those other characters are just props to me. Honestly, some of them hold as much interest as the chickens pecking around in the dirt. Not because they're intrinsically without interest, but because they are less important than my own character. I have the same reaction toward most of the characters in BioWare and Obsidian games, which just shows you how important a person's preferences are when it comes to defining RPGs. I've done my best to keep that definition minimal, but I've already been found in error.

I'm starting to believe it's the old players that are flamming the most....

"Immersion" is vastly overrepresented on these forums, and far from meaning actual immersion, it's generally a shorthand way of saying "I don't like this feature".

For me "immersion" is largely a meaningless buzzword to be used by PR department and gaming journalismos because it makes them sound more intelligent and refined.

When I'm speeding down the Fury of The Storm in Audiosurf on Expert Ninja Mono, I'm about as immersed as I can be(or I hit a gray block and my high score is gone) and it has absolutely nothing to do with story, characters, mobility or controls, because all of it is either nonexistant or dead simple.

Oh I don't know about that. I am not shaking my fist about anything that's for sure and I am old... so very old.


One thing related to the artical that I always have a hard time with is the idea that certain things are required for a game to be such and such. If every game Be it RPG or whatever was forced to include a list of requirements then every single game would be exactly the same almost. And let me tell you if it was the same there would be tons of people complaining about that. Every game does things a little different. Sure many things are similar and can be fit into common catigories but I would never knock a game for avoiding a mechanic or trying something different with one. Maybe it was better when done another way or maybe after a bit the new way is better. Both have happened.

Interesting article.