The Thalmor ''plot''

Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:41 pm

I've heard many people claim that the Thalmor intend to ''unmake Mundus'' so that they can become Gods again. This is all from MK's fanfic, but many people seem to take it as fact.

However, The Infernal City, which is one of the two Elder Scrolls Novels, says that the Thalmor in reality want to recreate a new Merithic Era. As we all know, the Merithic Era was the Era in which the races of Mer dominated over the races of man and Tamriel.

So can we say that Kirkbride's ''Thalmor plot'' is now merely a story? Since it's contradicted by established lore?

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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:52 am

First of all, I am by no means a devout "Anything MK says is law!" kind of person. The snobbish attitude of those who revere him as the arbiter of everything and anyone who disagrees is wrong is grating. A few of his works I am not a fan of. At all.

That being said, I wouldn't say MK's idea of the Thalmor plot is completely contradicted. Some of the Thalmor may be trying to unmake Mundus, so that they can thereby usher in a new Merethic Era. Since the Merethic Era began when the laws of Mundus were set after Convention, it would make sense to unravel Mundus so that you could usher in a new Merethic Era where Mer dominated once again. However, I like to think that not all Thalmor realize what is entailed. They may not all understand the implications of trying to bring about a new Merethic Era and may be so wrapped up in making the "pure" Altmer the head honchos of Tamriel like the "good ol' days" that they don't understand what exactly will happen. It would certainly add some nuance to the regime if they weren't all a single-minded organization of "mustache-twirling" villains.

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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:50 pm

Based on what we've seen of Altmer, I think that the idea that the bulk of its society would stand for a regime openly dedicated to unmaking the world is absurd. Yes, the world is bad place according the Altmer faith, but I doubt that they believe that with such conviction that they would attempt to destroy it for a state of being of which they have no experience. A fanatical minority, yes, a party capable of winning the favour of the majority, no.

It could still be a conspiracy though. Besides, I think that what Infernal City says is based on Imperial intelligence. If the latter found out the Thalmor were trying to destroy the world, many outsiders would dismiss them as lunatics, but others would attempt to make sure that never happens.

Anyway, the goals of the Thalmor could have changed over time.

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Matthew Warren
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:19 am

They want a new Merethic Era, which started after Mundus was created. In other words, if they wanted to unmake Mundus, they'd want a new Dawn Era instead of a new Merethic Era.

An organisation as strict as the Thalmor would be very single-minded. They are known to take out dissidents.

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Brandon Bernardi
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:30 pm

I mean that there is no 'new' Merethic Era to actually start if Mundus isn't unmade. You'd have to have a new Convention, which doesn't happen if the laws of Mundus aren't broken. I'm not saying that it is exactly what the Thalmor are trying to do, but it is still a possibility that I wouldn't quite say is contradicted.

And as strict as the Thalmor are, I doubt that those at the top of the organization are going to let the lower rungs of the organizational ladder know about every little scheme they were planning. It is quite possible that those that are the highest-up have such crazy ideas that they won't actually really tell others what their true plans are, even other Thalmor. Just because virtually all of the Thalmor think they should be the dominant power in Tamriel doesn't mean they all have the same ideas as to how to do it. Maybe even some Thalmor believe what the leadership is doing is going way too far, but they are too afraid to say anything. Or they are fed enough propaganda that they believe what they are doing is right, but they don't really understand what the top of the Thalmor food chain wants. Plenty of Altmer are stuck up, but that doesn't mean most of them actually want to slaughter others the way the Thalmor do, much less openly speak their mind about the atrocities. As of right now, we don't have much insight into the inner workings of the Thalmor structure. There is still some room for speculation as to what their overall goals are.

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Nienna garcia
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:48 am

If the Thalmor conqeur the whole of Tamriel, Mer will rule over it once again. Just like during the Merethic Era, that's what they mean when they say a ''new Merethic Era''.

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Sammie LM
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:06 pm

Yes, I know. I already said that previously. And that's what most Thalmor think of, I'm sure. But many Altmer also pine for the days when they were immortal. Many of them see mortality as a curse, so I'm sure a few of the Thalmor would love to go back to that time. They aren't exactly fond of what they perceive as Lorkhan's trickery in the making of Mundus, although that doesn't mean many of them will actually want to try to go back to that time. They might think they can set the new rules for a new Convention, thereby ushering in a new Merethic Era. At that point, they could possibly make humans their footstools AND keep immortality. For some, it isn't only about subjugating humans.

Does that mean you have to believe that any or all of the Thalmor are trying to unmake Mundus? No. You can think it is a crock if you want to. I'm just pointing out that it isn't exactly "contradicted." After all, TES lore is chock full of ambiguity.

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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:33 am

The way I've heard it, the reason they want Talos worship to end is because Talos functions as some kind of pillar that keeps the world in tact. So if they can completely end Talos worship, then they can successfully unmake the world. It is commonly known that the altmer have a bug up their behinds about losing their godhood. But no matter what is the talk about town, they feel that high elves are the only people who can viably rule at all. I suspect this is why the Thalmor are more concerned with the Empire winning Skyrim's civil war over the Stormcloaks. Because the Empire stands to reestablish Talos worship over all of Tamriel. The stormcloaks would only restore Talos worship over Skyrim ialone. Well, besides the nords being nothing more then a bunch of drunkards who destroy stuff in a drunken stupor.

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Dustin Brown
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:28 pm

It is contradicted. You see, Kirkbride's theory isn't used in the lore. The Novels are canon lore. Until Bethesda uses anything of Kirkbride's theory, the Altmer are only after creating a new merethic era, nothing about ''unmaking mundus'' in the process or the like.

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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:45 am

Ultimately we don't know, although I'm inclined to believe that Bethesda's vision of the Thalmor and MK's vision of the Thalmor (which goes in a much more Lovecraftian direction, portraying them as alien, unknowable, and an enemy to mortal existence as we know it) are not one and the same.

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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:05 am

Right, most Altmer in TES games just aren't that alien, even before we saw ESO's Auridon. The strangest things about them are probably their longevity and their ideas about ancestry.

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George PUluse
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Yes, because before Talos became a god the world was on the verge of collapse right? Daedric princes and Dagoth Ur couldn't do [censored], but a few Thalmor Altmer mages are gonna end the freaking world? Right? lol

And btw if it wasn't for those nords, we would still be in the merethic era and your precious imperials would still be Ayleid slaves.

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Nick Jase Mason
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:39 am

Actually, the slave rebellion was going to occur regardless. The Ayleids were at war with one another (which, in reality, was the reason why they fell) the Nords were certainly a good aid, but to say the Imperials wouldn't have succeeded without them is far fetched, they wouldn't have done so with a grant succes like they did this time, but I doubt they would've lost.

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Kelly John
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:48 am

It's kind've like how the nazis were always at war with one another trying to compete for Hitler's loyalty.

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kirsty williams
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:14 pm

You have to look at the bigger picture.

Even if they succeeded 100% on their own , which i doubt, they would still be surrounded by a mer ruled continent, with all the conclusions one can make which are bad from them that come from that.

It was the nords who really made possible the end of mer domination of Tamriel.

/maybe the redguards would play a different role in such a scenario but that's a totally different topic and speculation about alternative history, so.../

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Lauren Graves
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:28 am

With the storyline in Legends, Naarifin came across more like Mannimarco in ESO or Mankar Camorran in Oblivion; working for Daedric patrons to launch some invasion of Tamriel from Oblivion. Naarfifin had the Orb of Vaermina and a Dremora supporter who wielded Goldbrand.

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u gone see
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:17 am

Ay, I remember that.

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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:52 pm

So much for out of game sources.

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Charleigh Anderson
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Post » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:20 am

Not sure which one you think would be non-canon here, but I should probably expain it either way. Reive, a Dremora serving Boethia wields Goldbrand and the Forgotten Hero (player) takes the sword from him and wields it when the Hero impersonates the Emperor in the Battle at Red Ring. Titus Mede II was not in any shape to fight on his own, so he picked the Hero as a stand-in.

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Bryanna Vacchiano
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Post » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:49 pm

The Thalmor give elvenkind a bad rep. A disagreeable bunch of fundamentalists.

Religious fundamentalists is all worlds often actively wish and pray for the end of their world and eternalisation with their gods

Racial fundamentalists often seek the return of a mythic racial purity - a Merethic Era in this case

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Robert Garcia
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