First off, I want to clarify that I'm probably using the term "Godhood" wrong - I'm thinking of the Daedric Princes and their spheres.
Secondly, I just fried every neural circuit I could spare trying to wrap my head around the whole CHIM concept, and I'm not aiming to take this discussion in that particular direction.

...So, here's my train of thought, in the hopes that the resident lore masters can maybe help me lay down some new track, or at least fix the broken segments.
Daedra (all daedra, scamps to dremora, etc), are basically immortal. When they "die," they just get their soul banished back into Oblivion - unless they're soultrapped and stuffed in a shiny rock. The Daedric Princes (Azura, Molag Bal, etc) are more of the same, just super-powerful with a particular sphere of influence?
According to the wiki, and from what we've seen in games thus far, their favorite pasttime (presumably to alleviate boredom) is to screw with mortal affairs for their own amusemant. Sometimes for the betterment of said mortals - but usually not. They have a longer perception of time, spanning generations and centuries, and can arrange plans a long way down the road.

In short, their very nature gives them a mindset capable of comprehending an infinite existence.
Mortals on the other hand, not so much.

And the resulting questions:
-How might a mortal "harness" daedric immortality, using (one or more) immortal "animus" to transcend their own finite existance?
--Corollary: what are the arrangements with Arkay that "people" cannot be soul-trapped? Would tampering with one's own soul in the above manner (attempting to in some way fuse the immortality of daedric existance to it) break that arrangement? ...Implications and/or punishments of such tampering?
-Other than CHIM, how might a mortal being gain a "long view" of time, and not (/eventually) go insane by going from "finite" to "infinite?"


Bottom line is, trying to comprehend the various aspects at work of going from mortal perception of life to an immortal godlike one, and how in the ES universe such a thing might come to pass - specifically, in the sense of daedra and Oblivion. The only other example I've seen of such things is Talos / Tiber Septim, and I never fully understood how he "became a god."

*One last tangential query - the "Void" is everything beyond Anu and Padomay, if my understanding is correct. Nonexistence. So what are the "voidstreams?"

Think of the lesser daedra as the equivalent of mortals, with the daedra as aedra.

In fact, when you look at the actual differences between the lesser daedra and mortals, the clear defining difference between them, other than where they live, is their death. With mortals, they go to the Dreamsleeve, and go from a highly etched etch-a-sketch to a blank one. With daedra, they don't. They must endure the harsh sensory depriving, ever chilling pain of the Waters of Oblivion, nor do their have their minds wiped. This is why the lesser daedra flock to the princes, as the princes ultimately give them something ever so needed, a lighthouse to save themselves on the vast ocean that is the Waters of Oblivion.

Except their time is not Mundus time. But, we also have examples of this, like with Azura and the Nerevarine Prophecies.

hard to when one has their soul mind erased. Then again, there are ways around it, being a very long delay or cheating the system, like what liches do.

If a mortal can stick its soul into something undying, or already dead, that's a good way to cheat the system. Was a plan in the game "Redguard" by getting the soul stone that held the prince's soul and get it back to its body (didn't work out, the soul ended up inhabiting Cyrus's sword). Then there's lichdom, which works by taking one's own soul, temporarily binding it to an object while the body dies, then stick the soul back in the now dead body. In fact, obtaining lichdom is almost like enchanting, except one uses one's own soul, instead of another person's.

As for sticking a mortal soul in a daedroth's body, can't happen, same with vice versa.

They could, in earlier games. Think it has more to do with Black Soul Gems are just able to house a much more powerful...soul force than other ones.

And as I said, one cannot just fuse a daedroth to themselves.
Becoming a vampire and controlling the hunger. There's lichdom, but by the time one does that, they do it because they're quite absorbed in research (death really puts a damper on such things), protecting something (see the lich in the Bloodmoon MQ), or they have a plan (see Mannimarco and his plans on giving Arkay the finger). There's ascension, but with that, you become a god and already have a powerful mind to comprehend it. Also, the longest lived person in TES is Dyviath Fyr, being older than the Tribunal themselves. He seems quite sane, for the most part, and does say one should have a hobby or something to do, because living for nearly as long as recorded history (slight longer than 4000 years, where as DF is just so slightly younger, but older than 4000) can get sooooooo dreadfully boring without anything to occupy your time.

EDIT: Read this, from another thread

Tiber did it with REALLY good acting. As for comprehending it, it comes with the power of godhood. If you can't, you don't get to be one, or you blip out of existence like the Blind Moth Priests for not being selfish enough to say "I AM ME" after realizing "I AM ALL AND ALL IS ME." Vivec was selfish enough, which was how he achieved CHIM

It's saying The Waters of Oblivion.

Also this about Anu, Padomay, Sithis, Anuel, blah



Yikes, long post.

Also, there is the Void, then there are voids. These voids are the Princes:

For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis... In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion.


Vivec gives us 6 walking ways. (CHIM is not a way, it's an event when a being's inner and universal selves are healed in one.) Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words...Six are the walking ways, from enigma to enemy to teacher. Heaven by violence is a way of saying suspend the laws of limitation the Earthbones enforce on your soul, and you will be immortal.

It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once. -Vivec

Referring to the whole "mortals becoming gods" is it ever explained how exactly Umaril became half-daedra? And therefore able to respawn in Mundus and not Oblivion? (or maybe he respawned back in Oblivion and somehow was able to enter Mundus again)

He made a deal with Meridia, and things were a helluva lot more screwy in the 1st era and before.

True, it was before Aka/Lorkhan made the covenant with Allesia (among other things) So did he become an et'ada much like Pelinal (the shezzarine) and is reborn in a similar fashion?
But on a related note: Was his resurrection made possible by the barriers weakening? (shut down of Red Tower and White-Gold) I ask this because the KOTN arc is unrelated to any progress in the MQ, therefore you could complete it after the MQ and the realms of Oblivion would not be able to invade Mundus. (though one could argue that he effectively respawned during the Oblivion Crisis)

I know I may be over thinking things, but I'm trying to get a good story for my PC in Oblivion that is correct with lore

Yikes! Okay, too much to quote back on, but Hellmouth, thanks for the link to Lady N's write-up. That does help some, explaining how a mortal might become daedroth (and a Daedric Prince in particular), though I'm afraid mantling doesn't help in this particular case.
Re: Canis, I gather that the "realms" of Oblivion reflect their patrons, the multiple use of the term "void" trips me up though. The space between realms, then? Those being the voidstreams / waters of Oblivion? (Regrettably, reading the book of that name yields nothing useful to my understanding.) Likewise, "The Doors of Oblivion" are useless on this particular terminology.

Ugh. TES lore is so maddeningly complex sometimes.

I'd kinda hoped this wasn't necessary, but maybe it'll help clarify my (very confused) thoughts.
Years ago, when I was still actively modding for Morrowind, I tried binding some of my best together under the heading "From The Void," a moderately lengthy quest line that would explain how typically lore-unfriendly things like white suthay-raht with an affinity for magick and cold weather could actually make sense under the given lore (in this instance, the Lunar Lattice). One key element of this, and I confess a poorly thought-out one, was a disaffected Dunmer sorcerer, "Ixyliar." In layman's terms, he went nuts, wanted to wipe all Khajiit off of Mundus (in similar fashion to how the Dwemer went poof), and dedicated his whole life to this cause - he royally botched the attempt, ended up "breaking a link in the lattice" (so to speak) and ... [insert chain of events which are topic of discussion here] ... ends up a demigod with his own pocket realm in Oblivion, all full of hate and still very much interested in correcting his mistake and making good on his original intent.

As I said, he's not the most well-conceived aspect of the mod, which is why I'm here in the Lore section. I'm trying to establish a lore-correct route that would result in a mortal taking position among Daedric deities, and further my own very meager understanding of divine metaphysics in the process.
To clarify one final point though, I'm not aiming to make Ixyliar a Daedric Prince. It does however rule out Mantling since there's no one to begin the process.

There are a few methods of achieving godhood:

1st: Mantling (what Talos, the CoC, et cetera did) is basically like fusing with a god. You start acting so much like the god, that you become the god, and the god becomes you. Its like the functions y=x and y=|x| After x=0, they're the same line.

2nd: Using very powerful magic, combined with very powerful artifacts, can give you god-like power. This is what the tribunal did, and kinda what the dwemer did

3rd: Dracochrysalis, is a mysterious process by which some figures (Xarxes, Phynaster, Syrabane, and maybe Trinimac) became gods. It was taught to them by Auri-El (the Altmer version of Akatosh), and is probably pretty difficult. The name implies that it has something to do with becoming a dragon, and spening time in a cocoon. Its possible that the Ka'Po'Tun of Akavir have discovered a similar process.

4th: Being a god to start with. Some mortals are just shells created to serve as avatars of gods.

In TES, everyone is immortal. Its just that, when you "die" your soul is sent off to be tortured into forgetting who you were (or, depending on your perspective, maybe just goes through the natural and painful process of forgetting everything, as you are surrounded by the void). This section is really just about ways to keep on remembering who you are.

1st: Be an elf. Elves live longer.

2nd: Be a useful Argonian. If the Hist want you to keep on living, chances are, you'll keep on living.

3rd: Become a lich. Hellmouth explained this very well.

4th: Become a vampire.

5th: Become a ghost, then just have your kids keep you around with magic. This isn't perfect (you'll still spend some time in the dreamsleave) but it kinda works for the Dunmer.

6th: Become awesome with magic. Its unclear weather or not you really need any necromantic proficiency for this to work, but we know that a lot of powerful wizards live for absurdly long times.

7th: Become a god's chosen one (much easier to do with Daedra). They can interfere with the normal dying process, so that instead of going to the dreamsleave, you just go to their realm.

8th: Destroy the universe as we know it. It's the mundus that makes you 'die'

9th: Cause a dragon break, and then hope the world forgets that you died (worked for the Worm King)

10th: Chill out outside of the mundus, without being the chosen of a Daedra. Time and death don't really work the same outside of the mundus.

11th: Be awesome enough that people remember you, and make legends about you, and eventually some N'Wah comes along and becomes you (Like Nerevar did)

I think that's it.

Not only was that insanely useful, it didn't rupture neurons to understand. Mere words do not properly convey my gratitude. :cake:

EDIT: For purposes of discussion, however, the matter of "comprehending one's place as a god" is still very much on the table. I suppose Vivec's sermons are one example of a road to godlike enlightenment, but speaking honestly, they felt incredibly obtuse and I could never manage to read through more than one or two before giving up. (I'm not really cut out for allegorical or metaphysical word-puzzles)

A thought occurs to me, re: the whole Mantling thing. If it works for Daedric Princes, might it not also work for daedra of lesser stature? Not to say that a feral Bosmer and a scamp might have something in common, but while "grafting" or other forms of (meta)physical alteration on mortal soul vs daedroth animus are impossible (as stated by Hellmouth), might it be plausible for man or mer to merge with high-functioning daedra (say, a Dremora Valkynaz for example) in a fashion such as mantling?

wait the blind moth priest were on the verge of achieving chim?

The in-universe author of et'ada, eight aedra, eat the dreamer, is an ancestor moth priest who is zero summing. Pluralizing it is a bit of a stretch, (big one) but it is an example.

Not to sound totally stupid, but what is CHIM?

Nah, CHIM is a pretty big step from zero-sum. Zero-sum just requires you to comprehend some fundamental truths, which I would imagine are fairly accessible to a group like the Moth Priests.


CHIM is the realization that you are a single shard of a Godhead's dream, and therefore don't really exist as an individual entity, but then having the ego to say I AM and assert, despite everything, that you really are yourself. It is realizing the structure of the world and thereby being able to transcend it. Hope that makes sense, it's been a while since I've been on explanation duty

Thanks, ever since Skyrim was announced ive tried to delve into Elder Scrolls Lore... I'm about to go as mad as Sheogorath.
I have Oblivion and played Morrowind (wasnt mine, II borrowed it). I have tried to get into Elder Scrolls Lore before, but after a bit I get frustrated and move on to some other game series. Only to be drawn back and try again, and have the cycle repeat.

It's really not that difficult - just take it one step at a time May I recommend the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/ sticky? The 1st and 3rd Pocket Guides are also great resources (both available at TIL).

I also found http://s1.zetaboards.com/TESFU/topic/2694183/1/ to be a fairly understandable thread on the topic. Before that, I was more or less in the same boat, thinking "WTF is this?" That said, TES metaphysics are like calculus or advanced chemistry for me - no matter how many times I read over it, the switches just don't "click" right.

Oh it does make sense. That is actually one of the better explanations I've heard around here lol. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out for me. ^_^