Before i start, im not a really devoted fan or whatever people may call me for this, im just trying to explain to people who say "did Bethesda test this game!!!!!" where the game does have bugs. I have some experience of developing software so thats why im posting. I want a bug free game as much as anyone, im not overly defending Bethesda im just pointing out facts.

Firstly, apart from the magic resistance bug there isnt any bug in the game that everyone gets 100% of the time. The flying dragons is fine on my game and i suspect its because i started a new game, but anyway all bugs (except the one mentioned) are dependant on something else.

Now the main issue, the quest bugs. Most games follow a set order with quests, or only allow you to do a few different quests at a time. Skyrim is different in that you can have an unlinited amount of active quests. So lets take a few different questlines as its impossible to name them all without geting confused. We have a main quest (call that M), Thieves Guild (T), Brotherhood Guild ( and the Fighters Guild (F). Obvious there is more but just concentrate on them for the time being.

I can start all them at once if i want, just start a few or start all of them and mix and match. So i could do M1 (main quest 1), following by T1, then B1, B2, back to T2, then M2 for example. Thats just one way to progress through the game. On top of that i might only get half way through a quest, before deciding to go do something else and finish it off later. Point i am trying to make is there are an infinate number of ways i can tackle those different questlines, and because some are linked, they have a knock on effect. On top of that there is random exploring, wearing different armour and having different skills which all effect the style of play.

So it is impossible to test ALL ways of playing the game. It might be that a bug in the 2nd main quest might have been caused by me doing a Thieves Guild quest, following by a Dark Brotherhood quest and then clearing out a random cave. That could be the sequence needed to cause the bug. So no matter how many testers you have, you cannot test for every single possible outcome because there are so many

And like i said earlier, because only 1 bug is something every gamer will get (even tho some claim they havent), it can be possible to miss them because they didnt follow the exact sequence for the bug to appear. Its only when you get hundreds of thousands of gamers each playing the game that these things come to light.

Even with your ''explanation'' with the money they make and how professional they are supposed to be NOTHING can excuse a game being as buggy as this. These are not friends of ours we can ''cut some slack'' because it is hard for them. They are a professional company MORE then willing to take our money from us. So sell us a product that works. I have NO interest in how they test their games just that when I buy it and hand over MY HARD EARNED MONEY it works correctly. This game does not do that.

You, my good sir, deserve a standing ovation for this post.

Well it does for some. I kno many friends and people on other forums who havent had any major issues. Ofc they exist, but they havent come across them.

A few quest bugs are acceptable and I understand that with a game of this size and this much freedom they are almost inevitable.

The biggest issue I have is with engine bugs. They have been using this same platform for Oblivion, FO3, FO:NV, and more. It's difficult to work with on the PS3 and generally very buggy. I have talked with one of the lead programmers on FO:NV (Obsidian, not a Bethesda title but the same engine regardless) and he said it was a nightmare to work with, in not quite those words. This is the engine that is commonly referred to as Gamebryo, though that's not accurate, Gamebryo as I understand it is a graphics engine, not a physics engine (sorry if this is oversimplified, I am not a programmer and won't claim to be).

Frankly I think it's just too old and convoluted to do what they are trying to accomplish with this game, and has been built up on top of itself too much for them to fix many of the bugs without breaking (or necessitating a reengineering) of something bigger. Hopefully with the high sales (and staggering negative feedback) Bethesda will build a new engine from the ground up instead of trying to polish the turd they've been using. And I mean actually do it this time, because I know they said they were with Skyrim and, well, here we are.

firstly i can understand "buggyskyrims" comments that are appearing in threads. wouldnt always agree with the "burn bethesda at the stake" mentality but i have to say he does raise valid points in terms of they are an established developer and have been making these types of games for quite some time. i can understand a buggy game that needs a patch but faulty patches beggar belief. never had quest issues in 1.1 textures were for the most part ok and the game thus far playable. since 1.2 the game for me is broken. and im caught now cause clearing cache stops save files loading due to version error .... gutted ...hands down game of the year for me but losing its edge with patches that seem to cause more issues than they fix. tryin to play other games in mean time but still only wanna be playin skyrim lol

And your point is? So the people who do have game breaking bugs is just hard luck? They and I paid the same money as your friends so deserve a working product aswell. Like i said i do not care how testing and development works, Bethesda have no qualms in taking my money so give me a working product.

I appreciate your optimism but seriously you should read this post someone else posted who was involved with QA testing. He explains that some of these things that were overlooked should not have been under any circumstance. Do yourself a favour and inform yourself, this post is rather informative.

AGAIN I THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS. ALL CREDIT GOES TO Spiffuv8

I've noticed a lot of the threads here are angry, knee-jerk reactions to the issues caused by the new patch. And justifiably so, I can't recall a patch that's borked a game recently (this high profile anyway) However, the way some of the community members have started threads to collect bug info in a short about of time is impressive, it shows the passion people have about this game. Bethesda should be damn grateful.

I work in software QA, and have done game testing for a few years as well. And the regresions Bethesda has caused with this patch baffles me.

If Bethesda's regression/defect resolution life cycle after launch is what I think it is (and what it should be) They should have a couple hundred testers on site/on call to regress field reported issues and issues reported from in house patches under development. So with that in mind I don't know how the the following issues fell through the cracks:

- Dragon Encounter issues (flying backwards etc) : this should have been regressed in a smoke test, as it is a primary element of game play.

- Resistances Broken: Again, should have been covered in a smoke test. Or a unit test by the developer that covers that code.

- Quest related issues: If the QA department at Bethesda runs like I think it does, they probably allocate x amount of testers to a different section of the map and dump X amount of hours into it. Or they will have 60 testers play the same area of the game doing the same thing (as much as possible) at once to recreate issues or to find any new ones. I can understand why these are harder to find for them on site, but I would think after so many years they would have a system for testing this. Unless they rely too much on automation.

- Graphics issues: Unit testing should have regressed this, along with smoke testing across a spectrum of different save states.

- Item interaction issues (bookshelf) : This should have been an easy thing to spot, with their testers. and developers.

So what does this say? They didn't smoke test their patch (run a test plan that is composed of essential start up, audio/video, gameplay, etc test cases) deciding to either approve or reject the patch based on the results.

They aren't using enough live testers and might be using automation for testing. Back when I was doing game testing Microsoft was migrating over to automation for a huge bulk of their games for some stages of QA.

I for one have not downloaded the patch yet, I'm just going to leave my 360 unplugged while I play Skyrim until the situation is resolved.
This post has been edited by Spiffuv8: Today, 12:30 AM