Softnerd, how does that thought, square up in comparison to the currrently being devved or distributed items mentioned in the post by Ballowers100?

Jenifur Charne

There are some admirable hold-outs, but they're the exception rather than the rule. Note that the products mentioned are either owned wholly by their publisher or are being published independently.

Just to state my position for the new thread, I don't mind code wheel, manual work check, and I've never had an issue with disk check. I object to an internet requirement and giving someone else the power to decide if I'm allowed to play my game, or not.

Agreed, Uncle Fuzzy.
Further to that, I would add my opinion of offline DRMs which I do not accept. Ones which restrict and/or prevent my legitimate use of other legitimate applications which I have installed on my computer system.

edit: fix typos

Jenifur Charne

I like the way CD Projekt RED, GoG.com, inXile Entertainment, and the many kickstarted video games on kickstarter.com are doing it. I lost my physical manual that has the CD Keys printed on the back for Command & Conquer Tiberiun Sun back in the days even though I kept finding the physical manual when I lost it I don't want CD Keys or anything I would rather keep my mind clear and not have to worry about losing the CD Keys it's just annoying. So yeah I don't want any CD Keys printed on the physical manual I want 0 CD Keys I just want to put the disc in the DVD Drive or Blu-ray Drive install the video game then play.

That looks suspiciously similar to another of your posts I read within the past hour,

I wasn't sure if it got clipped off in the closed thread. I was writing in notepad as it wound down.

To be fair, they were also one of the first through the gate, which may have contributed to their success.

I personally would prefer not to use any form of DRM that requires me to keep track of physical objects like manuals or code wheels. I'm terrible at it...I seem to lose things like that every time I move. I didn't mind disc checks personally as I never really had problems with them, but a lot of people did, and as I mentioned they were ridiculously easy for a cracker to circumvent.

As far as the internet requirement goes, I generally agree, although I much prefer it to many recent types of offline DRM that damage my OS and/or prevent me from using my computer the way I choose to (SecuROM, I'm looking in your direction). My solution to that problem has been to never buy a game that requires online activation until it's dirt cheap. If I'm going to rent the game (albeit indefinitely) I'm going to pay a rental price for it.

I rarely find myself trying to install games from 20 years ago...I don't even have time to keep up with the newer games I've accumulated through things like Humble Bundle. That said, I'm more likely to play an older game if I can re-download it than I am if I have to dig through boxes in my storage unit to find it.

Honest question brought on by having not paid much attention at the time...were they really first through the gate, or did they just come out of the gate riding the only strong horse in the field?

If HL2 wasn't the most anticipated release of the time it had to be pretty close. I don't think that Steam would have had a chance if it had been initially packaged as the exclusive access to 'Rabbit Rodeo II: Hogtied Hares'. Valve had a solid market to exploit at the right time that I don't think anyone else had. If the game buying public had only known then what they were signing up for...I still have my disks that don't have a game on them, but I've never given Valve a dime since.

Pretty much this.

If people are using a PC (or various other devices such as tablets and smartphones) without a connection to the Internet, then they are also using computing devices that are out of date and prone to be hacked or have other issues. In other words, validating ownership via the Internet and installing updates (upon user request or by user choosing to automatically do so) is exactly the same as any OS or antivirus or other productivity software from the past two decades or so. Basically, the questions being raised have nothing at all to do with gaming and are the same for all software and computing devices. The pros outweigh the cons unless you want to leave yourself vulnerable (which you can still choose to do anyway by not allowing automatic updates for all software, including Steam and Steam products).

Obviously, this doesn't mean "always on" connection, but complaining about activation or whatnot has been decided since the 1990s.

No, Doom 3 was also there (and used other DRM that was not liked).

Many people complained about Steam originally but then went ahead with OS updates or antivirus updates that did the same type of process. (shrugs)

* chuckles wryly *
I'm something of a packrat, I hoard stuff.
Among my old DOS clutter is the game Zany Golf. The box and manual are gone, but I still have the 3.5in 720k floppy disk and the code wheel.
I no longer have any system with a floppy disk drive.

There were two areas of initial comoplaint which was why gamers disliked disc checks, and then a third arose.
Firstly, wear on optical drives. Back in the early days of CD ROM read only drives, long term reliability was NOT a certainty. Games needing the disc to be in the drive to play, meant more wear on the drive. This fueled the rise of No-CD cracks and patches.
Secondly there was wear to the CD media. the multitude of fine scratches a disc gains as it is used in an optical drive. People wanted to keep that damage to an absolute minimum.
Thirdly, DRM systems started being developed which use fake data on the media, or fake wear of the media. Real wear causes these DRMs to fail in such a way that the game is not re-installable or playable by the purchaser.

The problem with that is that the online DRM mobs, through their destruction of the second hand gaming market, via one use activation codes, renders your approach not viable outside of certain very limited countries.

Jenifur Charne

Just how is someone going to hack a computer with no internet connection? And if they found a way, what good would it do them?

How was online activation decided in the 1990's? I was happily gaming during that period, and didn't get an internet connection until 2007.

I generally disagree and believe an internet requirement is generally mean, rude, and just simply downright ignorant...

There are still a good % of people who are either stuck with Dial-Up (Like myself) or even just don't have internet because the other services aren't offer or said people don't have the money for the other services or even for internet in general. (The money per month, I should say. Affording a game is totally different than affording a monthly payment stacked with many other monthly payments).

I believe all physical disc copies of any game should NEVER require internet connection nor require you to install a 3rd party program that DOES require internet connection... I also believe that a 3rd party program, like Steam, shouldn't be required at all... Even if it doesn't need internet.

Lastly; for the record... I'm stuck with dial-up as the only other internet service we can get out here is Satellite, which is too expensive for us to get, mainly cause of the limit per month... Especially since after some of the crap that happened recently...

Yeah, I just recently came across a rather large box of games on 3.5" and 5.25" discs. I was in the process of purging due to the birth of a child and living in a condo in the city with limited storage space, so it all ended up in the dumpster. I (irrationally) didn't want to part with that box. It was pretty sad.

I know, and that stinks. Unfortunately, things like that just don't matter as much to me now as they used to. I'm aware that it's selfish. I have so little time to enjoy things like games that if I can get a game for $5 USD or less and play through it once or twice I'm pretty satisfied. 10 years ago I wouldn't have been ok with supporting such a model even at such ridiculously low prices, but I've gotten to the point in my life that I only have the time and energy to enjoy such things for what they're worth and move on.

Maybe I wasn't clear...I meant that I generally agree with Fuzzy.

Well. Mr. Fuzzy already pointed out a little mistake in that post... So I wont repeat.

As for the other stuff... Updating something is different than activating something... I do agree internet is required to update a software thing of some sort, game or program... But internet should NOT be required to activate and play the game or use said program... If someone cares about being up to date and don't have the internet, there are USBs! Download said things at a friends place and install the updates via USBs. Most things can be done like that, from experience. Heck, that's how I update Java all the time.

And internet was never required to this degree in the past to 'activate' something... It is just now getting to a degree where it is being noticed and causing issues. Specifically, it is with the gamer community (Which from my experiences, had been one of the more well knowledge communities in this subject and I am not surprise we are the first to say something about this stuff; and possibly getting it noticed).

The difference between STEAM which was marketed to game distributors and devs as a DRM, and anti-virus/firewall applications marketed to consumers, is that the former is marketed as a defence against a specified but not definitively confirmable, accountable, invisible, believed threat. The latter, however, is marketed as a defence against a clealy visible, definable, real threat.
Going online as the sole access for patches and updates for games, was not the norm when HL2 was launched. HL2 helped make this the norm. At that time, you coild still get game patches on the cover CDs of computer magazines.
Having software update online was made the norm at the consumer level by Windows. WindowsUpdate. But back in those early days of online OS patching, in the mid to late 1990s, you could still get the OS patches delivered on physical mediam bought from MS or on the cover CDs of computer magazines. MS phased that out in the mid 00's.

Jenifur Charne

I activeted many copies of XP by phone before I got internet.

Second hand? How about first hand? I just got a gift from my son...who has sworn off PC gaming completely and shifted to console in protest of on-line activation. Delivery of said gift? It's in my e-mail...notice to pick up my digital download from Gamestop. Why would he do that? Because a game that is a couple years old cannot be bought anywhere. No stores have it. No on line source can ship it. Digital download, period, like it or lump it.

Makes no sense... We never needed to activate our XP OS by phone or anything like that.

But still. A phone is, at least, better requirement than an internet... (You are talking about a normal house phone, right?)

If it is ONLY a digital download, I wont like it and I wont lump it. We as human beings has rights and we are allow to speak out our mind and defend them against those who wishes to remove them, just because it would be easier and less expensive on them to do so.

Otherwise, if a physical disc copy is possible without any internet requirement, I'm good with it.

Sorry. My mistake.

Activation has been decided since the 1990's? What? I purchased the PC version of Unreal in 1998 and the PC version of Unreal Tournament in 1999 I had no internet connections what so ever back then at all I just put the Unreal disc and Unreal Tournament disc in my CD-ROM Drive clicked install and then clicked play after the video game finished installing. I did not have to worry about any activations or any internet connections what so ever at all.

I purchased the PC version of The Witcher: Enhanced Edition in 2008 put the disc in the DVD Drive clicked install and played. Then in 2011 I purchased the PC version of The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings I put the DVD disc inside the DVD Drive clicked install and then clicked to play after the video game finished installing. I did not have to worry about any activations or any internet connections what so ever at all.

Yes you have to have internet to download mods, patches, updates. That is completely different from activation. I do not want to have to activate the PC versions of video games that I purchase I just want to put the CD, DVD disc or Blu-ray Disc inside the CD-ROM Drive, DVD Drive or Blu-ray Drive then click to install that video game on my PC then click to play that video game after it finishes installing.

Due to threads about Steam/DRM in Bethesda games being scattered in many game sections across the forum which makes it very difficult to moderate and the number of problems in each one, we have decided to have one thread for the discussion for everyone to discuss various forms of DRM/Steam in one place.

At the present we have no information about what DRM future games being published by Bethesda will have. There has been no formal announcement about it so this thread is merely for expressing your thoughts on various possibilities and expressing your thoughts about Steam and/or other DRM options which may be used.

The following rules will apply to this thread as well as all forum rules already in place.

1. No flaming, attacking or demeaning one another for their opinion about Steam/DRM (pro or con)
2. Any encouragement of piracy will result in a warning and temporary suspension of your account. Admission of piracy will result in a ban. This includes circumventing DRM of any kind.
3. Repeated posts by the same member to say the same thing can be considered spam and result in a warning against your account.

Rage has been confirmed to use Steamworks.

Skyrim has been confirmed to use Steamworks.

Dishonored has been confirmed to use Steamworks.


Steam installation link: http://store.steampowered.com/about/

One of the frequent complaints about Steam is that it can't be played offline. We are providing a link for instructions to do so. If it will not work for you, please contact Steam to assist with the issue.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1224956-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__18502385

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1712878

https://support.steampowered.com/register.php

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17



Please note the following forum rule prior to posting:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/724862-forum-rules-and-general-information/

For the purpose of this forum, EULAs are legally binding. Discussion of breaking it, avoiding it or cracking the game will result in a warning or ban of your account.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1248407-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1249436-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1251957-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1253988-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1258551-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1286613-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1331715-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-26/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359009-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-27/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1382539-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-28/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1416613-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-29/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1453951-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-30/

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1476435-unofficial-steamdrm-discussion-31/

Are the comments from the deleted one gonna be added here? That is weird.

I feel he was trying to send you that specific message.
Which chimes in with one of the principles which I abide by.
I do NOT do digital downloads of PC games.
This is why I do not, and will never, use STEAM, or even GoG, as a games purchase and delivery service.

Jenifur Charne