Anything and everything related to Vampires is welcome to be discussed here. I only ask that you try to keep it civil and respectful.

I'm starting off by quoting a post from another thread. While answering this I determined that it would only serve to further derail that thread, so I created this one for us to talk, share knowledge, ideas and theories, as well as express or debate our opinions.

Have fun

[Edit] This is the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1411934-is-playing-a-vampire-annoying/page__pid__21563810__st__90#entry21563810 of this thread. Feel free to look back and read up if you like.

..... Sadly, these are the facts.
-The castle is specifically known as "castle volkihar" by the local vampire population residing in it.
-Harkon says that he and his followers are among the oldest and most powerful vampires in all of skyrim.
-The volkihar happen to be the strongest clan in all of skyrim.
-Although not frozen they do indeed live within the perimeter of a very cold body of water.
-Vanilla vamps seem closer related to the vampires from the "Order" in cyrodill.
-At some point In time vanilla vamps were suppose to have the power dread cloak(this was cut) which surrounded its wearer in frost which further connects to the vibe of a volkihar vampire.
-As soon as lord Harkon re-emerges from "hiding" we start to see Volkihar and master Volkihar vampires emerge wearing the same vampire garb and eyes lord Harkon and his court don.
-It is strongly implied that Volkihar vampires are not particularly attractive.
-Harkon himself calls you a Half-Breed vampire towards the end of the campaign. In other words your obviously not a "Pure-Blooded" vampire. At least not in Harkon's degree.
There are definitely dots to be connected here.
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Personally, I think skyrim's and dawngaurd's vampires are the decendants of a Nordic strand of "pure-blooded" vampires who simply adopted the name Volkihar. As these Volkihar vampires turned others the blood line got thinner and thinner thus creating today's Thin-Bloods.
Now, If I'm wrong and Harkon, his court, and the vamps under him are truly in a league of their own. Please explain to me why they have essientally a mercenary army of Volkihar vampires (who they apparently stole a castle from) fighting under them. Especially when they make it clear that they don't like other clans snooping around their turf. There has to be some kinship between the volikhar vampires (which include all ranks from fledgling to night lord) and Harkon's pure bloods. Otherwise these "Pure-Bloods" would be using their own vampire force who aren't called Volkihar. Also, "stealing" the castle wouldn't have eradicated the Volikhar clan's presence in skyrim either.
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Logic dictates that these new Vampires are one of two things.
1. The likeliest of the two. They are Volkihar vampires.
2. Bethesda is butchering the lore in order to take down some of the 'boundaries' for what they feel is a "fun" game. If anything they're setting up the 'basic' blueprints for what they feel a vampire is supposed to play like. Sadly, thats liable to being recycled throughout their games with a few slight modifications here and there. Go figure.

Sure Merrari, se?or cinco, and caileanmor. There is still feasible reasoning and evidence that fuels your argument, But the other side of it still holds pretty solid.

Note that this is still all just an opinion like yours.

..... Sadly, these are the facts.
-The castle is specifically known as "castle volkihar" by the local vampire population residing in it.
Which could have been carried over from lore that existed in Harkon's time before he was turned, or they could have found it written in an ancient ledger, on a brass plaque on the wall. Its possible any number of ways that this castle carried the name long before Harkon occupied it, and that he didn't necessarily name the castle.
Though I do agree that it lends to a compelling argument that links Harkon with them. My pov just differs

-Harkon says that he and his followers are among the oldest and most powerful vampires in all of skyrim.
One of my personal theories is that Harkon just inhabited the castle, that he didn't actually physically take it from anyone. There is no solid evidence of this, granted, but its just one conclusion I've come to after much discussion and research on the material available.

Harkon talks about being a powerful king, ruling over a large kingdom. I personally think that he inhabited Castle Volkihar and possibly used its lore and reputation to sustain his political might. This would also explain (for me) the presence of the Statue of Mara, which indicates that at some point the previous owners were human and worshiped Mara.
Valerica and more so Serana, both speak about the "good old days" when they were a family, when Harkon was a loving father, and they all tip toed through the tulips together. His growing lust for power led him to seek the gift from Bal, a lust that he obviously transferred to his family, at least to some degree. It seems to me that he would then turn those of his court loyal to him, and feed on the rest. That would also explain (to me) why that Statue of Mara is now defiled.

..but this is just one theory I like

-The volkihar happen to be the strongest clan in all of skyrim.
...according to the anonymous author of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood.
His is just one opinion, and Movarth proved in the dialog that his information is in part flawed. It's shown that http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Movarth_Piquine may have existed between the 3rd Era and 4E201, and since this book also appeared in Oblivion its likely it was written some time before the Oblivion Crisis. (yes, I am aware of his appearance in Skyrim) Its entirely possible that the author is mistaken, relying on old information.
Besides this, Harkon states "among" the oldest and most powerful. Not "the" oldest and most powerful.

-Although not frozen they do indeed live within the perimeter of a very cold body of water.
True
-Vanilla vamps seem closer related to the vampires from the "Order" in cyrodill.
True
-At some point In time vanilla vamps were suppose to have the power dread cloak(this was cut) which surrounded its wearer in frost which further connects to the vibe of a volkihar vampire.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of this Compelling evidence that perhaps they did intend these to be Volkihar...but, not conclusive. They may have cut it due to deadline, or a shift in the creative direction. Until they come right out and say so, we'll not know for sure.

-As soon as lord Harkon re-emerges from "hiding" we start to see Volkihar and master Volkihar vampires emerge wearing the same vampire garb and eyes lord Harkon and his court don.
I've only seen them wearing the Vampire Armor, not Royal Armor. I'd be surprised if they were running around in Royal Armor, since the only NPCs seen wearing it is http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120803235359/elderscrolls/images/1/17/Harkonfull.png, http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120804234849/elderscrolls/images/a/aa/ValericaSC.png, and http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120906222002/elderscrolls/images/c/c0/Serana.png...and a set is available for the Player. While I haven't seen it, I'm not saying it isn't possible...only that it would surprise me.

-It is strongly implied that Volkihar vampires are not particularly attractive.
...but so are all vampires, even Cyrodillic when they don't feed.

-Harkon himself calls you a Half-Breed vampire towards the end of the campaign. In other words your obviously not a "Pure-Blooded" vampire. At least not in Harkon's degree.
Agreed with the "not in Harkon's degree" part.
I honestly don't quite know what to make of his Half-Breed comment, other than it was likely meant only as an insult. I for one got the gift from Harkon himself, so at worst that would make me second generation Pure-Blood, at least by my account. Even if I got it from Serana, the same would be true.
Perhaps he is referring to the fact that the player got the gift from him and not directly from Bal, implying somehow that makes the player lesser...which is clearly proved wrong, evidenced by the pile of ash that is eventually left in the cathedral by the player . But again, that's just me.

There are definitely dots to be connected here.
Agreed. There are defiantly plenty of dots to connect, no matter how you look at it.

If its just an opinion, then you shouldnt label them as facts, especially since a lot of them arent and you have ignored facts that do not support your hypothesis. Opinions also require reasoning. You cant just go 'its my opinion so its equally valid as anyone elses.' That cop-out gets used too much in conversation these days and its false. You may have any opinion on what should be done with a man who becomes ill in a movie theatre, but it will be a less valid opinion than that of the doctor, if there is one in the house.

--The volkihar happen to be the strongest clan in all of skyrim.

We do not know this. We know that was the opinion of a Cyrodiilic vampire who wrote that in his memoires over 200 years ago.

--Vanilla vamps seem closer related to the vampires from the "Order" in cyrodill.

Gameplay does not equal lore. Vampires originally werent even planned to be in Skyrim. Massive fan demand changed their minds.
Similarity in mechanics likely comes from re-using old designs to save time.
The only vampires we can be absolutely sure are Order vampires are Morvath and the ones he turned, his little gang.
Every vampire in Skyrim uses the same mechanics, regardless if they are Order or Volkihar. Even the Dawnguard vampires use the same mechanics, only one NPC ever transforms into a vampire lord and he only does so only on two scripted occasions.


--As soon as lord Harkon re-emerges from "hiding" we start to see Volkihar and master Volkihar vampires emerge wearing the same vampire garb and eyes lord Harkon and his court don.

These NPC's exist in vanilla Skyrim.
Dawnguard added vampire armour and random vampire attacks, but Volkihar vampires and variations thereon can be found skulking in remote caves and tombs in vanilla.

---It is strongly implied that Volkihar vampires are not particularly attractive.

? No vampires but the Order are attractive. The Order vampires are lorewise the only ones that can blend in, due to a pact with Clavicus Vile.
But gameplay is not lore.

--Harkon himself calls you a Half-Breed vampire towards the end of the campaign. In other words your obviously not a "Pure-Blooded" vampire. At least not in Harkon's degree.

He always says that, even if you became a vampire by getting infected by an NPC the game labels Volkihar. All vampires except those turned by Molag Bal himself are half-bloods.


The fact is that we can not be sure any vampire NPC is Volkihar or Order, except the ones the game explicitly names as such, and the ones who's ancestry we know from in-game books.

1. Logic dictates that the Volkihar are unlikely to be original vampires turned by Molag Bal himself as their lore-described powers differ significantly from those describes in the Lamae Bal book and in Dawnguard.
2. The one and only mention of Volkihar in the entire Dawnguard DLC is the name of the castle. This is not enough to declare 'butchered lore', especially since there are many tidbits of information that can be used to make likely the hypothesis that Purebloods and Volkihar are seperate strains entirely.

Not only that, but the book mentioned they were the strongest clan in eastern Skyrim. Harkon and Castle Volkihar are not in the east, and he has lived there for at least 600 years. So if Harkon's claim is true that his clan is the strongest, they'd be the strongest clan of (north-)western Skyrim, ergo, not the strongest clan of eastern Skyrim as the Volkihar are described.

Bam! Mind blown! I don't think Harkon and his goons are the Volkihar, I do think that Bethesda went back and made the vanilla Skyrim vampires into the Volkihar, rather than being the Order vampires. However, they did not change the feeding mechanics, which they should have. Why they didn't is beyond me.

The way I see it .... .... there isn't anything substantial (to me) that connects the vampire attacks with Harkon, nor the Volkihar named NPCs with Harkon. The name of the castle doesn't really mean that they're working for him.

Personal Theory 1: My favored theory. Harkon moved into a vacant castle ages ago while the ruling mass of the Volkihar were laying dormant beneath the ice. They're now slowly awakening, causing havok in an attempt to disrupt Harkon's reign so that they can eventually take back their castle and power.

Personal Theory 2: Harkon did war against the ruling Volkihar while human and won (explaining the statue of mara), the later was gifted by Bal, leaving the remanats of the Volkihar scattered in pockets around Skyrim.

Personal Theory 2.1: Harkon and family was changed by Bal, he in turn changed those he trusted within his court. He then warred against the Volkihar and took their castle, taking their power, scattering the Volkihar remnants...who are now enacting their revenge by attacking cities to draw attention to Harkon.

Valid Theory 2.1.1: Instead of scattering the remnants, it is possible that they've been ruling over what was left of the Volkihar, and that these are now starting to rebel. Though I don't like it because it then begs the question: If we're on the same side then why are they attacking me?

Valid Theory 2.1.2: It is also possible that they're acting under Harkon's directive. Since he's "gone off the deep end" wanting to block out the sun, he could be stepping up aggression in anticipation of his plan being completed. While its possible, its the least favorite of my theories only because the majority of his court (it seems to me) don't want to go public. The Volkihar is suppose to be (according to Immortal Blood) a paranoid lot so it seems counter to their implied character (to me) that they'd willingly go out and attack cities. Also, it begs the same question above.

These are my personal theories. There is little to back them up lore-wise, I realize this, but nevertheless the evidence presented to me through my two vamp side play-through experiences can lead to me to any one of these.
I personally like my first theory because it leaves plenty of room for lore to be written about the re-emergence of the real Volkihar, and a chance for Bethesda to introduce (if they so choose) a valid and defined version of the Volkihar. From a creative perspective, it gives writers lots of wiggle room for some good lore between now and the next game. While I wouldn't mind another vamp dlc to clarify things, I don't think it's necessary and probably better handled at lore that happens between TES 5 and 6.

Ahhh! That's a good point, one the eluded me

I maintain that the vampires at Castle Volkihar are the Volkihar vampires - it would seem ridiculous from a writing perspective to have them live in Castle Volkihar and not be Volkihar. And it would also be stupid.

What I also think is that Harkon, as a (Son of Coldharbour?) pure-blooded vampire, that is one who received his vampirism from Molog Bal himself ::shudder::, sees himself and his clan as superior to the "thin-blooded" vampires of Skyrim. Interestingly the disease that carries vampirism is different in Skyrim than in Oblivion (porphyric hemophilia vs. sanguinare vampiris) and I take this as a hint from the Devs that the vampires of Skyrim aren't the same as the ones in Cyrodiil or Morrowind. Not sure what the vampire disease is listed as in Daggerfell. What is clear is that Harkon feels his breed of vampirism (Vampire "Lord") is superior. Hence the need to cull the "lesser beasts".

And I wouldn't take the comments from Immortal Blood about eastern Skyrim to be binding - 200 years is a long time. We should also note (as has been suggested in numerous threads) that the priest/vampire in IB did not give Movarth completely accurate information: he may have been trying to get him killed. That the story shows how cunning the (I suspect) Order vampires are likely implies IB is a piece of propaganda and not a scholarly treatise on the subject.

Take-away points: (my opinions)
Harkon's vampires are Volkihar
Non-Harkon vampires are some other breed (Order or other)

P.S. Note that though the disease in MW was PH for all three clans that each clan had their own different strengths and weaknesses - in other words, the curse's effects are different regardless of the disease that spreads it. Which could mean (vs my above statement) that disease name does not signify which clan of vampires you belong to. Rats...

Well I changed my mind. I'm convinced that Harkon and his court aren't Volkihar.

My theory on the Volkihar and Harkon is that Harkon originally was turned by Molag Bal (as we already know) back when all vampires where more vampire lord than mortal. Over the centuries the vampire lords fed and passed on the vampirism strain, slowly diluting it, until we end up with the vampires we have now. Over the centuries that passed since we have no information on Harkon's whereabouts and what he was doing, so we can only speculate. I believe that they were hibernating, waiting for the right time to rise up. When they woke they found that they were the only vampire lords left, all the current day vampires are strains of vampires that have become of thin blood, more mortal than vampire lord. These vampires are not considered by Harkon as kin, they are pests, weak shadows of what vampires once were, which would explain his disdain of them. So Harkon and the volkihar, and possibly all strains of vampires are related in someway, Harkon's strain of vampire lord could in fact be a pure blood, what all vampires once were, before centuries of feeding and evolution and adaptation to environments changed each strain into what we have current day. Basically, Harkon's strain is an extinct strain of vampire that has resurfaced.

To clarify on the evolution of vampires, my theory is when vampires feed, they absorb a part of the person the feed on. So the Volkihar mainly feed on the frost resistant Nords, resulting in their resistance to the cold. Their affinity to frost magic could come from their environment and he way they hunt. They were known for living in the snow and ice, they could have developed hunting techniques based on their environment, using the frost magic to blend into the environment and use the environment against their prey. Also the environment itself would likely cause the vampires to change, to adapt to the environment. Just like any animal, they likely evolved over the centuries to the environment so they could survive better. Which is why the Volkihar and the Order vampires are different from each other when you ignore the changes that Clavicus Vile made to the Order vampires.

That's just my two cents, or Septims as it were. Make of it as you will but that's my opinion, I just cant see why Molag Bal, who made all vampires, would make different strains or types. I would argue that he would make only one strain, the original pure strain that has evolved and diluted over the centuries, Harkon's return is not just the return of him as a character, but of the pure vampire strain. It would explain his comments and his disdain of the 'weaker' and 'thin blooded' vampires that roam Tamriel nowadays.

It is implied there were more than one vampire clan in Skyrim. Twice! One mentioned in Immortal Blood, explained by Huleed. And this:


Notice the plural. Clans!

Also, Harkon and his family are pureblooded vampires, yes, but they aren't the only pureblooded vampires. Lamae Beolfag is a pureblood and she preceeed Harkon's family. Hell, even a "Cyrodiilic" vampire could be pureblooded. They know their history, they honor Lamae Beolfag and even mentioned her in the book. I am sure in their elitist personality, some might of been pureblooded as well.

As far as the Order goes, we know little about this clan. What information we have from them is that they are a secret fraternity, strict, and they worship Molag Bal and Clavicus Vile, possibly even making pacts and rituals with Molag Bal as one of those vampires compares the Bat to a "brother".

Anyone can be pureblooded. It is said the Daughters of Coldharbour are made by a ritual we all know about, but it is tradition among vampires, therefore known. Of course, it is a ritual not that many people survive.

Also. we cannot go calling the vanilla vampires "Order" just because they might be Cyrodiilic vampires. It is like calling thin-blooded" vampires Volkihar, even though they are not part of the clan. Order Vampyrum is the clan of Cyrodiil, and the members are all composed of individuals who have influence; Nobles, counts, politicians, aristocrats, etc. Most of the named vampired NPC's fit these descriptions and even the Order's nature.

Seridur is manipulative and deceitful, seductive when it comes to other men's women, he sends the player out to kill other vampires. He is a good member of society.

Jakben Earl of Imbel is a nobleman, who prowls the night feeding on people in the city. He has an unblemished reputation in the city.

Janus Hassildor hates barbaric vampires, whom he might consider "thin-blooded". He's a count, rich and wealthy, and everyone in the city never had a problem with him.

Lord Lovidicus, nobleman, wealthy, rich. Surrounded by servants, one of whom he fell in love with. His journal explains how much of a civil man he is.

Being "Order" means being part of the clan, and being part of the clan, the individual has to have a good power base, and has to follow the tenets(though many of these guys were a bit hypocritical when it came to revealing themselves). The vampires we find dwelling in caves and forts, howling and screaming in Oblivion are not Order. They're savage thin-blooded creatures, who are not kin. The Volkihar share the same exact sentiment, as do some of the vampires in Morrowind.

When it comes to the perceived contradictions between what's in the game and what's in the lore of the series what do you guys find most important - the lore or what the PC actually experiences in the game?

Not sure if this had been brought up recently, but TES is known to use the unreliable narrator when it comes to in-game books, so a lot of contradictions can be explained just by saying that Immortal Blood is a work of fiction. Or in keeping with the character of the socially integrated and manipulative Vampires living in Cyrodiil, it could also be a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the truth about Vampires.

Unreliable Narrator. That's the term I've been searching for. Thank you

It hasn't been brought up in this thread, but I know I've talked about it in others. That's the main reason why I don't hold much to what the books state, though it is interesting to compare and contrast on occasions, and see how many different conclusions you could extrapolate from them. At least it is for me.

Ultimately I guess the in-game experiences are most important. They're kinda the "final say" on certain matters for me, since I can physically travel there, see it, experience it, or interact with it.

I completely agree with this. You cannot get any more reliable source than your own first hand experience. Plus The Elder Scrolls are games first and other works of fiction second (not that I don't value the novels, but it's not like the novels came first).

Agreed VGM. I feel the same way. To think otherwise is too speculative. There is just not enough solid evidence to state otherwise.

I've been calling them "Faux-kilhar" for a while myself. I haven't considered them to be the Volkihar we've read about in Immortal Blood ever since I examined the facts. The only thing that connects them to the Volkihar is the name of their castle, but their location, powers, everything else about them suggests they aren't the same clan as the Volkihar.

Still hoping the creatures in Skyrim get revamped to be more lore abiding.

All this time, Immortal Blood was considered to be a reliable book ever since Oblivion came out. They are 100% on the Cyrodiilic Clan, some of the vampiric powers, and even the secondary character; Movarth Piquine.

It is considered "fiction" only because these "Volkihar" are much different than the game portrays them to be.

Exactly, people just can't accept that Bethesda retconned the volkihar

The lore, as that is the closest depiction of 'the real' Tamriel.
The games are approximations.
We all know Skyrim isnt to scale, that in 'the real' Solitude there would live a lot more people, that in 'the real' Skyrim there wouldnt be ten times as many bandits as citizens etc.
The game is an approximation of the lore designed to have a good time in.
The lore books we find in the game are better descriptions of what Tamriel is really like and therefore its a more important source of information than the game, which isnt an accurate portrayal.

Thats why I keep saying game mechanics are not lore.

But at the same time you have to accept that the lore as presented in the in-game books is full of unreliable narration, and subject to the cultural and personal biases of the in-game authors.

Or maybe some people have accepted that Bethesda have changed the Volkihar Vampires in Skyrim, and that Immortal Blood may have been considered a reliable source, but because someone at Bethesda decided to change the Vampires, now it shouldn't be considered reliable. It's mental gymnastics at best, but stuff evolves (or devolves, depending on your perspective), and you either adapt or get left in the past.

The problem is that they didn't change the vampires. Except for the new bat-faces at Castle Volkihar, they're carbon copies of The Order from Cyrodiil. And now with Dawnguard and the removal of Stage 4 attacks, the vampirism you get further exemplifies The Order's design; that being the ability to blend in. And given Sybil and Movarth, this is highly suggestive that at least some of the vampires you find are The Order.

Really, besides the few vampire enemies named such there is nothing to suggest the vampires you meet in Skyrim are Volkihar. They don't have any of their described abilities, and the abilities they do have are more akin to The Order. And the only book that does mention the Volkihar is careful to point out they only had (200 year ago by this point) a strong presence in only part of the province, not all of it.

Absolutely.
Thats what makes it so interesting.
Finding the common thread in different tellings, taking into account who wrote something..
Delicious.

If there are TES players who were looking forward to playing as a Vampire in Skyrim based on what they had read in Immortal Blood from Oblivion, then to them it seems as if Bethesda changed Vampires in Skyrim.
I think Immortal Blood was a cool book which just generally implies there can be many types of Vampires in Tamriel and Nirn. To a dev that might translate as 'hey we can do anything we want, because there can be all sorts of different Vampires according to lore'...
Some players take stuff more literally and instead of viewing it as an 'anything goes' kind of thing, instead want to focus on the limitations of what was specifically mentioned. Personally, I think that reconciling gameplay with the lore gives the game greater credibility, but if the gameplay isn't going to change, the lore is where there would need to be flexibility. Some people may have no problem with thinking of the lore as something at odds with the game mechanics they are playing with though.