I completely agree. Although one thing that makes the VL slightly less versatile is its inability to walk through doorways. I hate that. My main beef with werewolves is during a face off with multiple archers. If they're sitting somewhere you can't readily get to, you're in trouble. Your best bet would be to summon up spirits and hope the archers take the bait. VLs, however, force the enemy to come to them, instead.

When you get stuck in doorways, try turning sideways and going through that way. Normally, I can still slip through because it is the wings that cause a problem. The only time it doesn't work is if you are in a mine or cave in which the ceiling is just too low for the Vampire in general. If that is the case, your only option is to Revert Form. In any case, I do agree with you on this point. We are fortunate that the Vampire Lord form can be used indefinitely, otherwise doors would be an even larger problem (as ridiculous as that sounds).

you gotta point, but i still side with werewolves!!

To each his own. Personally, I've been finding myself becoming increasingly turned off from the Vampires. I was never a huge fan of what it did to my Dunmer Assassin's complexion, nor a fan of that hideous split lip. Since I play as an archer, I have also began to really appreciate the Enhanced Dwarven Crossbow so I've since restarted that character for the Dawnguard. Kept the original just in case I change my mind again, but I'm still not a fan of what it did to my Dunmer's face.

Ugh, no kidding. I got ticked off that I couldn't get a good crossbow, so I just added a few thousand to a chest in my house. Then I cured myself and went over to get a facelift. I still have that split lip, but my character looks pretty damn awesome. I also tried to cover it up with a scar. It sort of helped once I got reinfected.

The problem with that is if you take Necromage, you have to have absolute precision in your character's appearance. If you screw up even a little bit, curing yourself to fix it will cost you all of your benefits from when you were getting added bonuses to your perks as a result of Necromage. The 25% boost to potions and enchantments is awesome, but its still quite a loss to lose those perk bonuses.

Still, I hate what it did to my Dunmer's appearance. I am a fan of the bluish gray skin tone, I think it's the fourth of five options. Vampirism seems to force you into the first one, which I am not a fan of. Also accentuates the wrinkles on a race that is already kind of disturbingly wrinkled, which I am not a fan of. Finally, I'm not a fan of the Golden variant of the glowing eyes. I really like the glowing orange version that Altmer and Nords get, but I do not like the gold variant.

I know vampires are monsters. I know that in the classic lore, they are not meant to be pretty. However, I REALLY care about my character's aesthetic qualities and I find the damage that is done from vampirism to be completely off-putting. Those were the biggest factors for me. The Enhanced Dwarven Crossbow was just icing on the cake.

You have a fair point regarding the Necromage perk, but I did it later on, so those perks weren't getting buffed, anyway. As for the eyes, I hated them at first, as well. My Breton used to have the somewhat yellowish eyes, and it made him look completely BA. However, I managed to mold my PC's face in such a way where he actually looks cool. The reason being is that I modeled his face after I cured myself to look very young, and upper class. As a result, vampirism made my character look about thirty years of age, and gave him the monstrous, yet sophisticated look I think of the more powerful vampires as having.

i choose neither.

I like the way you think, I already watched the dawnguard tear itself apart as a result of me turning half of them into vampires, the next step is to turn each jarl, into my puppet.

As for the original question, vampire lord all the way, with the Better Vampires mod being a vampire is loads of fun.

In Skyrim I like werewolves more, gameplay-wise, VL is a good concept but somewhat poorly implemented. IRL and in previous games it's all vampires though.

Vampire Lord.

I maxed out a Werewolf for the Achievement, but never saved it.

Since Daggerfall, I've played exclusively as Vampires. The only determining factor is the stage of character development that I go to become a Vampire. Certain characters do well being a Vampire from the outset. Others work better once you get a couple levels or twenty under their belts...

I've kinda been switching around!
First in daggerfall (my first TES) I liked vampires
Then in Morrowind (Bloodmoon) I enjoyed werewolves
In Oblivion I was a vampire (but later cured myself because of the bad perks)
And now in Skyrim I enjoy werewolves, because they've been perked up soo well and they just look badass (but i dont know what the VL is like since I dont have DG)

Couldn't agree more

I'd be more inclined to really like the werewolves if Bethesda had gone a different direction with them. One of the major turn-offs for me with lycanthropy is that, in my opinion anyway, the vampire lord perk tree is inherently better. Do not get me wrong, the werewolves got the better end of the stick when it comes to their melee attacks. However, approximately half of the lycanthropy tree relies upon the Totems of Hircine quest line to even be worth anything. This is especially problematic because there are a number of outstanding glitches with this quest line that make it impossible to collect all of the Totems, thus leaving many of these perks completely useless for many player characters (including my Nord). Given the nature of bugs, Bethesda should not have made half of these perks completely reliant upon completing a particular quest line.

Furthermore, in going with the discussion on the perk tree itself, I'm not a huge fan of the differences in making use of these new abilities between the vampire lord and the werewolf. If I am not mistaken, choosing between your howls as a werewolf requires going back to the Underforge and praying to a specific Totem to activate it. I think a better system would have been to set it up the exact same way that the vampire lords have it, in which they can choose from their abilities in a drop-down menu rather than having to go back to a physical place each time you want to switch to a different howl. The system that the vampire lord has is far more convenient from a user standpoint, as many of these powers between both playstyles are situational anyway. When I used to play as a werewolf on my most recent Redguard, I often stuck with the Totem of Brotherhood because I found the summons to be incredibly useful. However, there were several instances in which I wish I had one of the other Totems, including when enemies would run away into the forest and I was having trouble tracking them down or an archer that kept disappearing into the environment. In those situations, I wished I had the Totem of the Hunt active and its a shame that I do not have the opportunities that the vampire lord has to simply pick between what powers are most convenient, rather than go to a physical place to rely on a single power that will not always be the most useful to me.

The final issue I have is that I feel Bethesda should have given lycanthropy some options that cater to the stealth archtypes in addition to the combat ones. Perhaps they could have included some form of hunter mode so that stealth characters would have some options that might be more in tune with their own playstyle, rather than leaving players to create their own. That or they could have offered some additional passive bonuses, such as additional damage to one-handed attacks. The reason I say this is because the stealth archtypes really do not have an incentive to use either the vampire lord or werewolf forms since they are capable of far more damage than any of these forms could put out. The only reason for stealth players to use them is because it is nice to switch up gameplay once in a while. However, this is where the vampire starts to leave lycanthropy in the dust, because it offers two passive bonuses that directly cater to this archtype: the illusion and sneak buffs. As it is, the only reason I can find to play the werewolf is because you really enjoy the roleplaying/gameplay elements that come with it, or if you are playing with a warrior build. If you are playing with either a magic or stealth build, I see absolutely no reason to play a werewolf over a vampire if you are looking at it from a strictly advantageous standpoint. I will admit that I am a little turned off by the way vampirism destroys the face of many player characters, though certainly not as much as it did in Oblivion, but if we are looking at it from a gameplay perspective, I see no reason to overlook vampirism for magic or stealth builds.

But you can have a sneaky werewolf.... The Light foot and Silence perks carry over into beast form allowing you to have silent paw steeps and those pesky pressure plate traps no longer pose a threat to you werewolf. You can as well cast muffle just before changing which will give you even more sneak while in beast form, with the combination of the two I ( as a werewolf ) can get within feet of my prey as long as I stay out of their line of sight. I will say that I'm not too impressed that I have to return to the under forge just to switch out my howls but as you said the Totem of the brotherhood is the one that you will most likely end up using the most but it would be nice if I was able to switch " willingly " them out on my own with a drop menu just like the vamps. The vampire lord is a powerful being but IMO they don't hold a candle to werewolves, werewolves are built to kill and I would wager that if a player controlled werewolf was pitted against a player controlled vampire lord that the werewolf would come out on top hands down. The only thing that would stop a werewolf was if he/she was cut off from a food source but seeing as a werewolf can run faster then a dragon can fly then there's no reason why a player controlled werewolf couldn't " bug out " from combat long enough to replenish the health pool.

The werewolf isn't as weak a play style / build as some think it is, you just need to plan it out before you even start. The Alteration tree is a benefit to werewolves as well as the Restoration tree, Sneak tree. Don't forget that with the addition of DG werewolves once again have an armor rating that tops out at 400 when at max, along with a swipe that is doing 160+ damage when standing, 320+ when it's a running power swipe and werewolves are good at killing while on the run so if your not fast enough to get a " lock " on the werewolf then it's game over all because the werewolf ( a player controlled one ) will run laps around it's prey taking chunks of health with each pass. So in closing.... Yes the vampire lord is a powerful build but it's all flash and no substance where in the werewolf is all substance and no flash and is built for killing as fast as possible, IMO werewolf trumps vampire/vampire lord hands down.

I am by no means saying that the werewolves are weak. They are clearly not as they are devastating in melee combat. However, what I am saying in my two posts is that Bethesda could have done more to make them shine. In terms of the actual game play, the only advantage I can find behind the werewolves is that there is effectively no passive drawback to them and they have ridiculously powerful power attacks. While there are not any passive drawbacks, there really aren't any passive advantages either. The only reason they gain a 100% resistance to disease is so hybrids are impossible without glitching the game and that upside is easily taken care of by visiting shrines or carrying Cure Disease potions. Vampires lose some of their strength and regeneration in open sunlight, but this is hardly a problem when you compare their passive upsides. The +25% Illusion buff is the only passive spell buff that I have found in the entire game short of those offered by potions. All others only decreases the magicka that is required, not the actual power of the spells. The +25% bonus to Sneak is also very useful. Between that bonus and the 5/5 perks in Sneak, you will rarely be seen. Finally, the Necromage perk completely busts vampire builds open in terms of power as it boosts tons of perks, enchantments, and potion effects. Those bonuses leave vampires with stronger smithing skills than are possible for all other builds (bonus to Smithing enchants), stronger potions (bonus to Alchemy enchants), faster Dual Wield attacks, faster Archery attacks, etc.

Comparing the werewolf and the vampire lord forms themselves, the only advantage that the vampire lord has is its versatility. Melee damage caps at 70 possible for a vampire lords melee attack, 50 if the opponent has 100% resistance to poison while werewolves have 160. Armor rating is also lower for the vampire lord, capping at 300 rather than the werewolf's 400. Vampire lords simply cannot compare in the damage department, nor the armor department with lycanthropes. However, the form itself does compare in the variety of attacks that are available. As I noted in my earlier post, if werewolves ever run into a scenario in which an archer is on an inaccessible ledge, as has happened to me in the past with environments like castles, your only option is to wander around to find a way up or run away because the game will not allow you to wait with enemies around. Vampire lords have ranged attacks that are more than capable of hitting it. The actual trees themselves really do not seem very balanced either. Each one plays to the forms strengths and weaknesses, but the lycanthropy tree still runs into a problem where 4 of its 11 perks require a questline to access. Bethesda should have simply left the Totem system where it was, seeing as how it is still bugged, and opted to go with 4 other perks so that they do not run into the problem. Personally, I'd prefer the entire Totem system dropped if they are not going to fix it, but its a little late for that.

Finally, allow me to backtrack for a moment. The point I was trying to make isn't that lycanthropy is a weak build. The point is that it is not quite as build friendly as vampirism. There are two types of lycanthropy builds that I have come across. Either the builds are those in which lycanthropy is something fun they can do to keep from getting bored, taking advantage of the fact that there really is no downside to being a werewolf short of hearing guards talk about how there is fur growing out of your ears. The other possibility is intensive builds in which players intend to primarily use the werewolf form. As you noted, Alteration, Restoration, and Sneak are useful for those builds. However, those skills are going to require a number of perks and that leaves the most powerful werewolf as something that is less accessible to builds that are not making use of those skills. The only build that I know of that exists for vampires is the Necromage build, which requires only three perks in the Restoration tree to require. Whatever you want to do beyond those perks is entirely up to you because Necromage is the only perk necessary to creating the most powerful vampire lord.

The other thing that makes lycanthropy less accessible is the archtypes for which it is most relevant: warriors. Vampire lords are going to make better use of the magicka pool that exists for mages, so I think the vampire lord makes the most sense for that particular playstyle. This kind of leaves stealth in a limbo in which you could argue neither form is especially useful. This is because stealth builds will always deal more damage than is possible than either form. Between a 3x archery sneak attack and a 15x/30x Backstab bonus for sneak attacks using daggers, the stealth build will only feel a need to use these forms to alleviate boredom. Even then, the vampire still maintains its pro of accessibility because of its passive bonuses, which are most relevant for stealth builds. In fact, in the vampires case, the passive bonuses seem specifically designed for stealth builds.

Regardless, the point I wanted to drive home is that werewolves are definitely the stronger form. However, the only way you will see that advantage is by actually using the form. That is the part that makes the vampire lord shine because I never even have to touch the form in order to see improvements to my character. The vanilla passive bonuses for the vampire are extremely nice, if a bit niche oriented, and the Necromage bonus is so overpowered that it applies to all three of the general archtypes at one time. Truth be told, I think you could make the argument that the Necromage bonus is, on its own merit, so ridiculously overpowered that it leaves lycanthropy with more to be desired.

Most certainly, I cannot argue with you on that. They did drop the ball with the passive perks to becoming a werewolf, for example a " detect life " power to use in human form as a bonus for becoming a werewolf, become stronger then average while in human form etc...etc... And they did make it more of a " God mode ", in which as you stated there's no draw back when it comes to becoming a werewolf BUT there really isn't any draw back in becoming a vampire lord either seeing how they removed stage four hostility. The vampire lord is the everyday gamer build where in as you said the benefits vastly improve your character but the werewolf is for the more seasoned player where in you need to put some fore thought into your build before you actually become a werewolf and you really need to think tactically and plan out your attack before you engage etc...etc... Once you do figure out what works and what doesn't with a werewolf and once you figure out how to hunt properly your unstoppable, personally I really didn't take to the vampire lord form I'm not really a vampier fan to begin with but I am a HUGE werewolf fan so my opinion may be a little bias

Damn text walls

Anyways, I go for the werewolf when i play with a warrior with high stamina and low alchemy, i go for the VL when i play with mages and (sometimes) thieves because it is easier to feed when required and you have better magicka for your heavily magic based character.

I apologize for that. I am a graduate student so I am used to having a " price floor" to how much text is required for debate. It is a habit that has developed from that.

@carrots: Actually, I think it's the opposite problem. Lycanthropy is very well designed for less seasoned players because there are no drawbacks to it of any kind. In fact, I argued with friends that you might as well go with it because its a free resistance to diseases in the game with no costs. However, I think that is the largest problem behind lycanthropy in Skyrim. Vampires only started going that way once Bethesda removed stage four hostility, which I think might have been in their best interests if they wanted players to enjoy both factions. However with vampires, you see those bonuses because of the risk/reward concept in which the drawbacks are still kind of a pain in the rear end (I hope you have Auriel's Bow if you intend to use Magic in broad daylight). Lycanthropy does not quite get as much because there is no risk, thus there is hardly a reward. Bethesda should have taken the opposite approach and put some risk in there so that there was a reason not to be a werewolf. Perhaps they could have left forced transformations in there, or created weaknesses in the event that you opted to transform when there was not a full moon present, a system that would require lunar phases. As it stands, unless you are diehard enough to make a build for it (I offer you kudos for that), there really is no reason for anyone not to be a werewolf. I cannot say the same for vampires.

That is what I was trying to get at when I said there are really only two kinds of werewolves in Skyrim, those who have an intensive build for it and those who take it because there are not any drawbacks, thus they want a crutch for when they get bored. The latter part is actually more build friendly than even the vampires, but I chose to ignore them and focus on the intensive build because they are boring. I wanted to focus solely on the players who intended to actually use the werewolf form, in which the true advantages lie, rather than those who were not going to do so. It probably seems unfair that I excluded these werewolves while including vampire lords who intended to rarely use the form, but in my defense, I chose to do so for one reason. That reason is that, regardless of whether or not you intend to use the form, the heftiest disadvantages are still going to apply no matter what. This is something that is simply not true of werewolves.

While I like that I can get back my werewolf status when I get cured of DG vampirism, I chose to refuse Harkon's offer.

Werewolves tear down enemies much faster and I love their knock down attack. Works wonders. I can stun lock enemies that cannot be knocked down, and the claws just do crazy insane damage. The speed of which you can tear down even the strongest foes is insane. The speed they have is wonderful too. Great for evading dragons til they land. Then, there's the almighty moon totem that lets you summon two werewolves. OP. Thats what you use to take out legendary dragons. Summon them, they take all aggro,then you just stun lock from the side. Dead dragon.

Werewolves just make me happy. I thought the VL's were good but boring. I think it is best that mages play as VL's and warriors play as WW's.

I totally agree!

I love the just.. how to put this, the destructive nature of the Werewolf!

well im doing my main character now and i have a perfect story for him and he will be both
im thinking of creating a thread with all his adventured but i doubt people will read it or even be interested in it

I like both, but chose the Vampire Lord because it was the most recent one I played. I haven't played a werewolf since they added the perk tree, I guess I need to do that!