What makes TES TES, and does TESO hit those notes?

Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:54 pm

There are several components that make a TES game what it is in my opinion. One is player freedom. Another is the lore and sense of historicity. Yet another is combat. And the last major component is exploration.

Player freedom, to me, means that in some form or another you have the ability to roleplay a background and motivation in your head, and then choose from skills and abilities freely in order to live out that role. Many lamented Skyrim's elimination of attributes for this reason (i.e. we can be good at using axes, but we cannot be WEAK - perhaps due to a roleplayed injury - because there is no strength attribute.) But even in Skyrim, thanks to perks and the lack of classes, we still had the freedom to make our own way, at any time. If we are restricted to classes in ESO, that freedom is gone. That the classes essentially boil down to the typical triad in MMOs diminishes freedom and the sense of character uniqueness even more.

Lore and the sense of an ancient, complex political and cultural history is and always has been at the heart of TES. The single player games have managed to spoon feed us that lore in bites both large and small via books, dialogue, and plots (however poor or well done you feel they've been.) We have always had the freedom to seek it out - almost as though we were in-game scholars, doing "research." Given that this game sounds like it's using fairly traditional, status quo MMO mechanics, and given the end-game's reliance on PvP over the Imperial City, it's easy to envision any political or cultual connotations quickly being reduced to hyper-competitive meta-gaming and clans. I imagine it may be difficult to concentrate on how there's a war of succession for the throne of an ancient civilization going on when your primary concern is whether your healer is buffing your party enough. When games like Terra have political systems like they do, it seems unnatural for a game that should be so steeped in culture and lore to not have one that goes at all beyond PvP.

The combat in TES games is unique. It may not be that innovative or, depending upon your tastes, even particularly well implmented. But the fact is that TES games are known specifically for their first person melee combat, having to equip or read spells in order to use them, and managing your stamina, HP, and magicka (MP.) It sounds like the stats are there, but without the first person, visceral combat that makes you feel like you're really there, it simply WILL NOT feel like an Elder Scrolls game to me. Maybe I'm alone in this.

Which brings us to exploration. This at least, presumably, will factor into an MMO. But in any MMO, especially one using traditional structure and design elements, there are going to be areas you can't go before a certain level. One of the great things about TES is that you can venture off in any direction and accidentally find yourself somewhere that perhaps you shouldn't be yet. But if you're careful and well-stocked, you have at least some chance of survival... with a commensurate loot and XP reward for surviving encounters you by all rights weren't prepared for. I have yet to play any typical fantasy MMO where this is possible, and from the look of things, ESO will not be an exception. So how will this sense of exploration and discovery translate into ESO? Will it at all?

I know there are balance concerns not inherent in a single player game that Zenimax must consider, but unless you're going to at least TRY, in some way shape or form, to hit all of the notes that make up the chord that is "The Elder Scrolls," then I am forced to ask: why even bother? The only answer I can come up with is, "because an MMO with even a decent player population with the name Elder Scrolls stamped on it is a potential cash cow." And with a series as special and beloved as TES - a series which has remained defiantly single player, massive, and hand-crafted in an age of increasingly MP-centric, on rails, smallish games churned out every year - that just isn't a good enough reason, Zenimax.

I hope to be proved wrong in the future and, as I said, will TRY to reserve judgment.
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-__^
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 7:58 pm

Freeform book reading?
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Elisha KIng
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:01 pm

What makes TES TES is different for every player. And not all features of the singleplayer series can or should be translated into an MMO - some might consider being able to master every skill is a core feature of TES, but it would totally ruin balance and any class distinction in a multiplayer game. So, I can only say what the "TES feeling" is to me ...

- The Lore, of course
- Open World, huge explorable content
- Lots of choices to freely build the character I like
- Lots of choices to interact with the world
- Visually realistic combat: No fancy colors when slashing with my weapon

It seems TESO offers 4 out of 5, so I'm quite satisfied. There's always room for improvement, though.
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Charlotte X
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 5:43 pm

There are several components that make a TES game what it is in my opinion. One is player freedom. Another is the lore and sense of historicity. Yet another is combat. And the last major component is exploration.

Player freedom, to me, means that in some form or another you have the ability to roleplay a background and motivation in your head, and then choose from skills and abilities freely in order to live out that role. Many lamented Skyrim's elimination of attributes for this reason (i.e. we can be good at using axes, but we cannot be WEAK - perhaps due to a roleplayed injury - because there is no strength attribute.) But even in Skyrim, thanks to perks and the lack of classes, we still had the freedom to make our own way, at any time. If we are restricted to classes in ESO, that freedom is gone. That the classes essentially boil down to the typical triad in MMOs diminishes freedom and the sense of character uniqueness even more.

Lore and the sense of an ancient, complex political and cultural history is and always has been at the heart of TES. The single player games have managed to spoon feed us that lore in bites both large and small via books, dialogue, and plots (however poor or well done you feel they've been.) We have always had the freedom to seek it out - almost as though we were in-game scholars, doing "research." Given that this game sounds like it's using fairly traditional, status quo MMO mechanics, and given the end-game's reliance on PvP over the Imperial City, it's easy to envision any political or cultual connotations quickly being reduced to hyper-competitive meta-gaming and clans. I imagine it may be difficult to concentrate on how there's a war of succession for the throne of an ancient civilization going on when your primary concern is whether your healer is buffing your party enough. When games like Terra have political systems like they do, it seems unnatural for a game that should be so steeped in culture and lore to not have one that goes at all beyond PvP.

The combat in TES games is unique. It may not be that innovative or, depending upon your tastes, even particularly well implmented. But the fact is that TES games are known specifically for their first person melee combat, having to equip or read spells in order to use them, and managing your stamina, HP, and magicka (MP.) It sounds like the stats are there, but without the first person, visceral combat that makes you feel like you're really there, it simply WILL NOT feel like an Elder Scrolls game to me. Maybe I'm alone in this.

Which brings us to exploration. This at least, presumably, will factor into an MMO. But in any MMO, especially one using traditional structure and design elements, there are going to be areas you can't go before a certain level. One of the great things about TES is that you can venture off in any direction and accidentally find yourself somewhere that perhaps you shouldn't be yet. But if you're careful and well-stocked, you have at least some chance of survival... with a commensurate loot and XP reward for surviving encounters you by all rights weren't prepared for. I have yet to play any typical fantasy MMO where this is possible, and from the look of things, ESO will not be an exception. So how will this sense of exploration and discovery translate into ESO? Will it at all?

I know there are balance concerns not inherent in a single player game that Zenimax must consider, but unless you're going to at least TRY, in some way shape or form, to hit all of the notes that make up the chord that is "The Elder Scrolls," then I am forced to ask: why even bother? The only answer I can come up with is, "because an MMO with even a decent player population with the name Elder Scrolls stamped on it is a potential cash cow." And with a series as special and beloved as TES - a series which has remained defiantly single player, massive, and hand-crafted in an age of increasingly MP-centric, on rails, smallish games churned out every year - that just isn't a good enough reason, Zenimax.

I hope to be proved wrong in the future and, as I said, will TRY to reserve judgment.

i Think everyone can agree that TES:O wont be an TES game with an online mode, and there will be compromises of things that simply dont fit in an online enviroment, and there will be design decisons that rubbs some (not all) TES players the wrong way, which is fine, they cant satisfy everyone. However you brought up some valid concers (some that i share and someones that i dont agree on). Exploration and lore beeing the main ones for me, How will exploration be handled? well from what i can tell you is that it will not be as good as TES SP, simply because of the nature of the game, you wont be able to explore all the content at the earlier lvl just because its meant for lvl cap charcters sadly. My fear though with that in mind is that exploration is as limited as in WoW, where you cant even explore parts of zones until later, i hope they pushes the bounderies for "mordern mmo exploration" which might it give more of TES feel (it wont be exactly like TES i can guartee you that). I think the lore part will be fine, if i remeber right from the GI artikle there where allready talk about books (correct me if im wrong) and the game was said to be fully vioced (dialogue).

Combat im less concerned, simply because i dont mind the "hotkey" gameplay, i mean ive enjoyed wow combat for 6 years ( yes yes shame on me i like WoW), and they some to evolve it, with the stamina bar (which might give you that stamina mangement you talked about) and with the finess bar to encourege skillfull play (im less optimistc about that, it probally just will be a WAR morale bar for the powerfull abilites),If its going to feel visiral or not, time will tell when we se some actual gameplay. another fact is that i just dont think medival warfare in FP mode works in a MMO setting, mainly because of Darkfall and mortal but also might and magic messiah MP, all of which the combat was horrible (eventhough SP dark messiah is the best FP fanatsy game combatwise)

Another concern for me is hubless quest design, it sound great ( its why im excited for this game and GW 2), but it will only be as good as the eploration ( i mean if we are very restricted by lvls, it wont be hard to figure out where the "quests are")

All in all im excited, and the game looks promising, but lets face it, Very few big budget MMOs become great games and commecrially succesfull, so ZOS has alot to orove and work on, but i have hope and im still optimistc


end wall of text
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Tammie Flint
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 10:04 pm

For me, what makes TES, well, TES, is the following:

-Wide Open Character Development
Classes are arbitrary restrictions that restrict you for no reason other than to restrict you. I despise race / class limitations that dictate what you can and cannot play. I hate equipment restrictions on items that dictate what you can and cannot use based on race, class, or skill level. These are outdated concepts that I am absolutely happy to see that Elder Scrolls tossed out long ago. I want to be an Orc mage? I can do it, and with a little work, can be just as good as the High Elf mage. I want to be a Cleric that uses swords instead of blunt weapons? I can do it, I am not limited by an arbitrary restriction that a cleric can only use blunt weapons. I want to be a Necromancer that dual wields swords and dons heavy armor? I can do it, I am not limited by an arbitrary restriction that says someone who uses magic cannot also be good in melee combat. I love that the game is skill based and not class based, I love that the notion of classes has long been thrown out in Elder Scrolls, to the point of no longer even existing in Skyrim. I love that I level up as I do, not as I kill. I love that I can combine whatever skills I want to define my character as I see fit, not in the way that the developers have decided to design my character for me.

Does TES:O hit upon this? No, it seems not. It seems that TES:O is going to a very uncreative class system that limits you in who and what you can be.

-Completely Open, Living World
The "living" part of this has only expanded as technology has improved, and Skyrim certainly exceeds in that area better than Morrowind and Oblivion, that being said however, there has always been a certain "life" in the worlds of Elder Scrolls. Even in Morrowind, when the characters are stationary and never move, the world still has a sense of life to it. I feel like I really am just one person journeying throw the lands of Morrowind, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim, existing in a world that is much bigger than I. I am not funneled into areas that the game wants me to go, I am able to go anywhere I choose. The world isn't divided up into difficulties - some areas close to the starting location will be easy, some will be hard, and some areas far from the starting location will be easy, and some will be hard, and what's great is that I can go anywhere at anytime regardless of my level, and I can explore, or even attempt to kill things. It is a world, one that is truly alive, and I am just another person in it.

Does TES:O hit upon this? Yet to be determined. There does seem to be a lot of area that one can explore, but we also know from interviews that we will not be getting full territories. We will get parts of Skyrim, and Cyrodiil, and Morrowind, and all of the other locations. We won't get the full thing. Mountains and many terrain features have been described as "backdrops", where as TES terrain is never a backdrop, but rather fully detailed and implemented area that is accessible to the player. It is also yet to be determined how the zones will be broken up based upon levels. Will it be an EQ-style where you have free reign to any zone at any time, however they are level based in terms of what you can accomplish there? Or will they be Warhammer Online-style where zones are restricted completely based on level? I would venture to guess that no, TES:O will not hit upon this in the same way that TES games are known for.

Those are the big draws to me about Elder Scrolls games. I know I only mentioned 2, but they are huge for me. If you took out the wide open character development, and the open, living worlds, no amount of lore or gameplay could make these games as magical as they are. As far as I'm concerned, no matter how great they may be (and I have played some great ones), class based RPG's with linear stories that force you through a certain path (even if you have a choice in that path ala a Knights of the Old Republic or Dragon Age) will always be inferior to an RPG that has no classes, and has a wide open world for you to exist in as you see fit. That's why Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim will always be my favorite games, and favorite RPG's, and Star Wars Galaxies will always be my favorite MMO, because everything was up to me, not what a developer decided for me.

That's not to say I cannot find enjoyment out of class based RPG's. I do. I love(d) EverQuest, and have recently returned to it, I love Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age: Origins, I love MMO's like Warhammer Online, or even games like City of Heroes, I love many old school RPG's like Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Chrono Trigger, etc... I love PnP RPG's like Dungeons and Dragons or even Big Eye Small Mouth (even though I hate Japanese anime with a fiery passion reserved for only the most hated of things) and it is yet to be determined whether or not I will like The Elder Scrolls: Online. I very well might.

But there is a certain magic to games like Elder Scrolls that toss out those needless class systems, and actually allow you to be your own character as you see fit, and a certain magic that a class based RPG will never be able to match. Thus, I find TES:O to be largely disappointing thus far because despite being called Elder Scrolls, it doesn't include anything that actually draws me to Elder Scrolls.
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Lauren Dale
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:55 pm

What makes TES TES is different for every player. And not all features of the singleplayer series can or should be translated into an MMO - some might consider being able to master every skill is a core feature of TES, but it would totally ruin balance and any class distinction in a multiplayer game. So, I can only say what the "TES feeling" is to me ...

- The Lore, of course
- Open World, huge explorable content
- Lots of choices to interact with the world

-snip-



This 100% makes TES what it is, it has nothing at all to do with view point or what key initiates my attack's.
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Nikki Hype
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:05 pm

i read the game informer article and i think they hit the notes pretty well. they'll do well.
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SaVino GοΜ
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:19 am

i read the game informer article and i think they hit the notes pretty well. they'll do well.

May I ask, in your opinion, which ES notes do you find ZeniMax to be hitting? Curious.
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josh evans
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:41 am

All of them.
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Celestine Stardust
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 5:55 am

All of them.
stop trolling man ant you sick of it by now ! I believe TESO to only have TES lore on its side and even then its somewhat haphazard.
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courtnay
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 8:41 pm

I hope they will take the Style of Morrowind. Micheal Kirkbride makes really Fantastic work :biggrin:
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dean Cutler
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:37 am

This 100% makes TES what it is, it has nothing at all to do with view point or what key initiates my attack's.

Thanks for this response. I was having trouble making up my own mind about what was important about the series, so you telling all of us that there is an objective Truth that exists regardless of anyone's opinion saves me the trouble.

In other words: No.
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Add Me
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:22 pm

sorry bout that, went to bed. i don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment but there was a list in the article of elder scrolls "notes" that they wanted to make sure to hit. One was daedric prince involvment, which is covered by the main story with molag bal and also the fighter guild with the dark anchors. It didn't elaborate on the other princes but they're bound to be in there.

open world exploration was a point that was hit. unmarked dungeons for explorers to stumble across and also mages guild features finding hidden lorebooks as a part of their story.


I'm blanking on what else the article said (borrowed it from a friend and gave it back) but i was statisfied by the points they talked about
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Heather beauchamp
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 6:30 pm

Thanks for this response. I was having trouble making up my own mind about what was important about the series, so you telling all of us that there is an objective Truth that exists regardless of anyone's opinion saves me the trouble.

In other words: No.
I enjoy you +1

I'm honestly thinking the only thing TESO will hit, is the lore.

That's it.

Even then, it seems like they're pulling at threads to make these 'factions' work.
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Ruben Bernal
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 8:09 pm

The lore is the only thing they really need to hit.

Everything else can be altered, added, subtracted, etc at will to fit the design of the genre.
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Rachel Tyson
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 3:16 am

sorry bout that, went to bed. i don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment but there was a list in the article of elder scrolls "notes" that they wanted to make sure to hit. One was daedric prince involvment, which is covered by the main story with molag bal and also the fighter guild with the dark anchors. It didn't elaborate on the other princes but they're bound to be in there.

open world exploration was a point that was hit. unmarked dungeons for explorers to stumble across and also mages guild features finding hidden lorebooks as a part of their story.


I'm blanking on what else the article said (borrowed it from a friend and gave it back) but i was statisfied by the points they talked about

Meh, I don't think that merely having Daedric Prince involvement hits a "TES Note", nor do I feel they are truly having open world exploration, when large portions of each region are going to be blocked off, thus not explorable nor open world.
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Chloe Yarnall
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:36 am

it's an mmo...there will constantly be updates and more regions added/unlocked. there will be open world exploration in unmarked dungeons, onesnthat aren't pointed to by compass marker and that will reward you by taking the traditional elder scrolls of wander around and get distracted on your way to where you're going.
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courtnay
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 7:03 pm

Meh, I don't think that merely having Daedric Prince involvement hits a "TES Note", nor do I feel they are truly having open world exploration, when large portions of each region are going to be blocked off, thus not explorable nor open world.

At least until the expansions comes out.
Your exploration has always been limited to what they've made so far. In Morrowind I could only explore Vvardenfell at least until the expansions came out.

If the lore is handled well, zones aren't limited by level, the classes reflect those found in TES I-IV and aren't WOW-clones, and the world is detailed with lots to discover it will have enough TES notes for me.
I'd prefer FP pov but its not a core part of TES for me
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LuCY sCoTT
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:19 am

I'd prefer FP pov but its not a core part of TES for me

i agree with you in part on this. It's not a core part of the TES for me either. I'll usually switch to 1st person when i'm dungeon crawling or in combat, but otherwise i always explore the world in 3rd person. with hotkeys I won't be forced to switch to 1st person to make sure my cursor is where I want it, so i like that.
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Alba Casas
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 6:54 am

The lore is the only thing they really need to hit.

Everything else can be altered, added, subtracted, etc at will to fit the design of the genre.
Generally this is where I fall, on the important note that this is a spinoff prequel. I wouldn't brook that for a TES "Chapter" game,. in which freeform exploration, reading fully-written books in game and designing the plot and backstory of your character in your own brain take equal importance.

But for the MMO, lore and lore is all.
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zoe
 
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