I think we all do but we see ways it could be better. Personally I'm part of the more is more crowd and I hate it when Bethesda decides something needs to be cut for no real reason. I've given my arguments in regards to levitation, but it would have been a huge help in Skyrim, when you can't get the dragon's attention because it insists on staying very far up in the sky. I also miss being able to attack while midair, the option to use crossbows or throwing knives, and all the other 'fun stuff' from prior games that we lose. I do have to admit, sometimes things get taken out and it's for the better - like having to keep repairing your gear..

If there was one city in the game the size of Blackreach, I would have been extremely happy.

Problem is that Solitude and Winterhelm were opposing capitols so they had to be equal size, and they had to be larger than Whiterun, so Whiterun was forced to become smaller size it wasn't practical to have two large capitols. Sadness. Hopefully with DLC we can have one large city hub.

IMO,Vivec remains the Greatest City (and Largest), in Tamriel!!

Oh my G-d! hahahaha! that was hilarious, Todd dresses as Maiq! hahaha-

Yeah, 8 pages in and still no one has linked an article where BETHESDA said the cities were massive.

I hate when someone 'embellishes' their own truth and it takes off like this

Vivec was a ghost town. Daggerfall was massive because it was randomly generated. Big means nothing without content. If anyone is complaining about the amount of content in Skyrim, I really wouldn't know what to tell them.

This would have been interesting - and I might agree on the general sentiment. Bigger cities would be cooler (I'm not exactly complaining either though).

But it's not interesting... it just devolved into a cuddly reminscing session about the great TES games of the past.

...Which were flawed in their own way too.

Anyways, despite some real complaints about the issue, I think the problem with most of these kind of threads is that some people don't live in the present. Their head's are clogged with nostalgia and ideals of the past that do not exist in reality. And because they're trapped in this little fantasy world, they can't enjoy a decent game for what it is. Instead, it's perceived like it's the scourge of the earth or something.

Jesus Christ, this again? The cities are big enough, Solitude is huge. The Imperial City of Oblivion while technically "big" svcked, it was just one circular hallway/alley with shops after another. I wanted TES to take it back to MW like cities, while these aren't open cities (modders will take care of that for us PC users) they certainly feel less claustrophobic and artificial than those of OB. My favourite cities are still Balmora (tiny by current standards) and Vivic (huge, done right totally open and unique). But Vivic, in hindsight wasn't really a "city" it was more like HQ for each of the High Houses of Morrowind with Vivics Temple attached at the stern.

I can't remember the name of the Imperial Port City in MW, Dragon something? It was extremely cool but again tiny by current TES standards. The cities of Oblivion (other than one of them) looked like Beth used a cloning tool to make them.

More "lies" talk, more people that don't know what a 'lie' is

Overall its still the best game ive played in a long time. Ive put down gears madden 12 and mwf3 for skyrim it really is an amazing game.

Yeah, the part about the subject being the size of the cities.

There is so much hate for this game it's ridiculous. This is an amazing game, that all of you are playing a hell of a lot, so it must be something right.

Something I read the other day cracked me up "Thanks Bethesda for ruining my quest" - the quest and incredible game wouldn't be there without them!

This is an incredible game. Would I like larger cities? Yup, sure would. But we may just have to wait for the next gen consoles

Even at the end, after much anolysis of the maps and information to estimate city size, I was still saying "They'll be about 30 buildings for the big ones... they may have exxagerated, and there may be no IC sized place, but they'll still be bigger than the average Oblivion city..." Nope. 18 buildings a city. About 10 in the smaller ones.

Hey, they're massive when you're overencumbered! :hubbahubba:

Big city in Morrowind: http://images.uesp.net/e/e4/MW_Map_Vivec.jpg Big city in Oblivion: http://images.uesp.net/c/c4/Imperial_City_Map.png Average city in Oblivion:http://images.uesp.net/3/38/OB-Map-Cheydinhal-ann.jpg "Massive" city in Skyrim: http://images.uesp.net/thumb/5/58/SR-map_Whiterun.jpg/600px-SR-map_Whiterun.jpg

Well, if I'm gonna address it, I'd prefer more NPCs myself. The sizes are OK. They could be improved, but it's not exactly what lends to any of the size in my mind.

The vikings weren't known for building sprawling metroplises.

The Nords are not vikings. And a city with 18 buildings is not a city, even in the middle ages. I hate when people try to justify lack of content by comparing it vaguely to something in real life. "Oh, Skyrim is a tough place to live so there should be 2 cities with 5 buildings in them and 20 NPCs in the whole game!"

They're pretty much based directly off of the vikings.

Massive is relative, this isnt daggerfall
But then daggerfall didnt had anything but low resolution cardboard decor with no movable items in them
and most of the time not even npcs

for its time it was still a step up compared to bards tale or might and magic 6, who didnt even had interiors !!!

------------------------------------------

now lets compare skyrim and oblivion

same size as the ordinary cities, in theory
but the landscape is a lot more sophisticated
especially things like the gorgeous markath and solitude

but looking closer, they do take up more space, despite having a similar number of buildings
I think the building are scalled up, as well as the decor
and then you get crazy views when looking outside the walls

yes, even bigger cities would be fun, but if they release all provinces that would be even better

lets face it, in daggerfall I spent all my time in the central market and the inn located there
as I said, its not as if there was anything cool inside those houses
arena was a bit different and had sorts of dungeons with the cities
and small adventures
so entering houses could yield some interesting events

if they do larger cities, they should do it along these lines

-------------------------------

skyrim versus morrowind

that one is easier

its tempting to say balmora was larger. but balmora was made up of tiny houses really
even the 3 manors seem smaller than the average house in any city
and totally dwarfed by any house in solitude

then there is the problem that nothing was going on in balmora
I mean appart from the cornerclub which was dealt with swiftly
and sort of killed the immersion by removing from the city what was basicaly *local color*
they should have done the opposite

in the skyrim ciies, you got reasons to go there
I forage all the time in the forests, but some ingredients are rare
and I always end up at the alchemist

I often switch companions and so I m always busy visiting the smiths
the mine never have enought ore to build all that gear

then there is some food you cant cook,
and there are the songs at the tavern, along with rumors, brawls and what not

finally each major city is surrounded by hugue sprawling suburbs
-farms complete with fields, chickens, cows, goats, and so on -
I m always there to get the eggs, wheat and leek
I also rabsak all the barrels in the cities, fish at the lake
and visit all my friends to ransack their larders
(the items turn white after you do them favors, representing friendship)

I dont think the cities were that real in oblivion or morrowind

now, it could be even better, I wont deny them.
but for this version of tes5, I think its acceptable,
if they intend to do the provinces

if not I may be a little upset, because they did promise HUGHE



Is it possible to get dumber than you.... this is the only *true* rpg out there
dragon age is more of an adventure game, like king quest, with a fixed storyline and cut scene
I dont know how big their city is, but it didnt look big from the videos

name one game larger than skyrim right now...



morrowind was actually smaller
takes me 20 minutes to traverse it

from solitude to wolf skull cave takes 30 minutes at running sneak speed

keep in mind you probably find it small because you use run always.
In skyrim, run is equivalent to morrowind speed 100 athletics 100 with magical equipment to boost
that s a speed that you would not achieve in morrowind before the end game
I totally recall the crawling speed of early morrowind levels
speed was my first stat to go up, and athletic my first skill
I couldnt stand it

Now daggerfall, that s cute. It was fun, but a lot was in the imagination
and the variety of critter wasnt that great
To some point I prefered might and magic 6
It had a lot more variety, the dungeons were a lot more refined
but it lacked house interiors, player houses, and a lot of other stuff daggerfall had
and the 3D of mm6 was substandard at best

each had its strenght and weakness

now if they can create a modern technology that support a massive universe, that would be cool

------------------------------------

by the way, markath + its dungeons = MASSIVE

you cant deny that, its larger than any daggerfall dungeon I ve played

------------------------------



Lets not lie

morrowind for all its qualities had defects

-didnt respawn
-got overpowered quickly (by the time you reached level 10, faster if you had the xpacks and knew what to do)
-had no crafting
-was imbalanced (I had a permanent army of 10 summons tied to each items on my body)
(respawnable by reequiping them)
-no voice over
-no tavern atmosphere



visit the hidden valley
massive forsworn city .... but not verry friendly



agreed

windhelm stretch verry far outside its walls, same for whiterun and others
and this time arround the mines are for real, you can mine in them, use the ore to build gear, equip all those companions so they can do something when dragons attack
you actually interact with the world

not saying it cant be better
but this is stuff you usally get only in mmorpgs by paying a montly subscription. so not bad.



do you play on master level without the dual wield or shield bash exploits (with the alchemy enchant loop and all that crap)
if so, falmer should give you a sound beating from time to time, when they swarm

also you contradict yourself, you say you dont want detailled meshes but you want detailled animations. animations is both the longest and hardest part of the artist work. get a grip on yourself. stop spewing insanities.

now if you want large cities AND detailled animation, only an old gorila on crack would fail to see this would melt any graphic card.

for anything like that to happen, they need to develop the best LOD system ever devised. no one has it yet



you are on crack-cocaine sir.

Julian Lefay PROMIZED warfare for an hypothetical title called oblivion which was supposed to get done after morrowind
(not real time ! real time was not even invented)
Now Julian left, morrowind didnt deliver all the complexities he envisioned (moving blight that expand and so on)
and tes4 oblivion had nothing to do with his plans

mount and blade tried to deliver warfare, but its not quite working due to lack of proper AI
If you played it you know what I mean. The map AI doesnt even have basic functionality that warcraft had 10 years ago.
the tactical AI is in similar shape

even if total war is much better, it also has its shortcoming, because strategic and tactical AI is the hardest thing to do
(otherwise robots would be fighting the wars out there, not soldiers)

err, a friend of mind in master degree tried to get a robot to recognize a face ... muhahaha ... you wouldnt believe how funny and complicated that stuff is

so yes, Bethesda do their best to provide a game that actually work
and in which you can actually play
(as opposed to sitting arround during a siege, hoping the clock moved faster...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ne1fVhvL00

On a serious note, if I had to guess, I'd guess they mean any city with walls. Markath, Riften, Whiterun, Windhelm and Solitude. In their defense, those ARE generally bigger than they look, just compact. I've gone wondering through the streets before and thought "wow who the hell put this here," though again, usually the extra areas I discover are nothing but NPC housing, so it's not like I'm finding anything that's interesting.

Medieval cities were not that large either. Yes, they were larger than what Skyrim represents. But, the majority were in no way the sprawling metroplises you're all calling for. This is particularly true in Nordic culture, an exception being the Kingdom of Jorvik. If you really want large medieval cities look to the Arab and Morrish countries. They surpassed all other countries at that time in architecture.

Well, I'd say Riften is compact (and thus smaller than the other cities in terms of space). I'd call the rest of them rather sparse. Windhelm is actually bloated in size because of the freaking walls everywhere. Seriously, just a whole bunch of walls with a wide road on either side, they could have fit buildings there.

Are you kidding me? There are far more quests either starting in or involving Balmora than in any of Skyrim's cities. Beyond the quests, there is a far higher concentration of shop owners and trainers, making it highly useful in general.


No one is calling for sprawling metropolises. We are calling for larger cities and honest descriptions of those cities prerelease.

Kind of sad they didn't find a way to include 2- 3 sizable cities with NPC's roaming, I meet more out in the wild then in a town. IT was the one thing I didn't like with oblivion, and the one thing I do not like in Skyrim. With luck, they will address this in a future game.