I mean the basic pillars of TES have become the more player driven combat, first person viewpoint, and more importantly the freedom to do what you want, how you want, when you want.

The huge sandbox world that you play in by shaping your character however YOU want to and doing what you want to do being all up int he air is what drives most people to play TES games.

So who thought it'd be a great idea to instead of following "TES formula" (Not a class based system, real time combat with aiming, etc) to instead follow your generic "WoW" chasing formula?

There is a reason EVERY single "wow" clone has failed or went into F2P terrority. Why should anyone leave WoW to play another game that plays like WoW? They usually don't, and if they do it's for a month or two, then back to WoW where everyone else is.

There is an entire legion of people out there, like me, who are TIRED OF WOW style games (it's really EQ's formula, but WoW is what most people know it by). We have had these types of mmo's since the 90's, it's time for a change or something.

One of the main reasons I love TES is because it's one of hte few rpgs that not only has a huge great open world but allows you true FREEDOM to do what you want, unlike most rpgs in general. To follow down the WoW formula just amkes no sense.

People love TES, Skyrim sold a TON. People know it and love it. Why would you NOT make the mmo for those "fans" and instead want to make the mmo for "mmo fans who play wow?" HAve you not learned from Warhammer, Aion, Star Trek Online, etc? You won't get WoW's subscribers by copying it, but you CAN have a successful mmo based on TES if you make it LIKE TES.

Seems like a rather simple and logical thing, not hard to get, but seems they just don't get it .

To answer your question: The people who provided the money to make this game.

I imagine in 2007, it really did seem like a good idea. You know, wow was awesome, Elder Scrolls is awesome. What could go wrong? However FIVE years later, and several games later, lets just say we know better. The MMO market needs a little innovation, and as we've all seen before elsewhere, it ain't here.

Curious how you mention Star Trek Online in your list, which is nothing like WoW ...

Clones don't fail because of the combat. Hotkeys and tab-targetting is the most efficient combat system in MMO's, that's why it is used. Some games have altered that combat system, like AoC, WaR, and Rift, but in the end, it is still the same system because it is the most efficient and proven.

Clones fail because the only end game is grind. Progression is locked into levels and a linear thinking.

A lot of things about the TES series can't be duplicated in a MMO. Sacrifice must be made. Things like thousands of items that you can pick up and move around throughout the world. Being the hero, you guys really need to let this one go. You aren't the king of the world any more. FPS combat style, with no auto targetting. Name a AAA MMO that has a FPS combat system. There isn't one, and there is a reason for it. Name another MMO with FPV that is AAA quality. There isn't one, and there is a reason for it. The general gaming population doesn't like it. I love Skyrim, but I played it in TPV because I can't stand FPV. I knew these things had to be changed before even knowing about a ESO release. The hiding and stealth isn't going to work in a MMO. It would be far too complicated, and in a lot of instances, it simply wouldn't work. Pick-pocketting will probably not be in ESO. Killing anyone, anywhere and looting their gear will most likely not be in ESO. Though, that's unfortunate, because I feel this game could be a godsend for sandbox gamers. It just won't happen.

I will be okay if the lore and world are accurate. I will be happy if I can tell that it is an Elder Scrolls game just be looking at it. I will be happy if the developers give us something more than linear end-game progression. We need other things to do. The exclusion of housing is my biggest gripe though. That is one of the most time consuming systems that you can have in a game. Not only that, it gives players personal property within the game world. It makes those players feel as though they are part of a living, breathing world. I don't understand the thought process behind leaving out housing. One of the first things I would do in Oblivion and Skyrim is save up for a house so I could store all of my belongings. Don't tell me it's not possible. Ultima Online did it, albiet poorly, 15 years ago. It's laziness.

Ultimately. What I'm saying here is if this game were copied as is, into a MMO. It would fail. FPV and manual aiming isn't successful in MMO's. It would cause problems acrossed the board. It's just how it is.

Well, okay, I'm with you when you say sacrifices must me made; I agree with that. But even if the lore and world are accurate, they are still coping the MMO model that we've seen for the past, what going on 8 years now? You know, the one with the massive grind at the end. I really do enjoy the lore in WoW, but I'll be damned if I set foot in DS again. And lets not talk about their "honor" system. Would player housing make all of that magically better? Probably not. And even then, there would be much grinding involved anyways one would wager.

Something a lot of us wanted was that it'd push the envelope a bit, try something new.

Some TES fans don't like current MMOs.
Some MMO fans don't like TES.

We were hoping that this could bring both those groups into it, but sadly, it seems only for those who like both MMOs and TES.

WoW clones failed because there was no point to leave the bigger game (WoW) unless you wanted a different setting.

I'm not saying housing would be the abra-cadabra of it, but it's just one thing that would help distinguish ESO from the rest. How many MMO's recently have housing? The answer is, very few. My point there is that developers don't think this kind of fluff is important in games. Then they wonder why everyone has gotten to max level and are screaming at the top of their lungs about having nothing to do. Public dungeons will help a little. It brings me back to the days of Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot. Hopefully, there will be some tug of war aspects to mob spawns and such. That sort of dynamic gaming is important. This needs more sandbox features at end game. Not just grind quest X or arena Y for epic phat loot. Even though there may be plenty of that, there needs to be more. We have been playing the same game since WoW was released.

It's getting boring.

That it does.

Nope, clones do fail from combat. SWTOR. Generic MMO with Light-Sabers. The only redeeming part of that game was the story. That's it. Even still it seemed like an after-thought to me. When combat is redundant and null you can quickly find yourself bored and lose interest in a game which is often what happens so many times with newer games trying to improve the old system instead of reinvent it the way it should be. (My opinion, mind you.)

Woah woah woah, just because you don't like FPS style gameplay doesn't mean 'the general gaming population' doesn't like it, it just means it's never been tried by a well funded company (as you admitted). What's wrong with an MMO that plays like skyrim and just adds sandboxy things for people to do? Literally all they would need to do is take all of the elements of skyrim (besides the graphics) and add in multiplayer, skill restrictions and balance, player housing, the ability for clans to fight to control territory, content geared for groups of players, and some more demanding crafting skills. Maybe add in some naval combat for kicks.

If they did that I know I would be looking at the game in a more positive light.

Well, I am skeptical about an actual MMO, but I have always wanted a BGS-made multiplayer mode for their games.


Edit: but in the end I imagine those game modes would end up having a very arcade-like feel, and when you've completed the game up to near 100% completion I think some alternate game modes might be a welcome distraction. But I sure as hell am looking forward to Dawnguard.

Its not a TES game, so I dont really understand your post.
Why would you compare an MMO to an RPG?
Its not even produced by Bethesda.

This means nothing for the main series.

Its just sad that the people giving the Money in still dont realize that these games will never sell.

The Artstyle is abyssmal, no Armor looks remoteley like something out of a TES game, besides the Orc Armor wich is ruined with too much Chainmail. Btw this is mostly due to the fact that the armor is "painted on" a feature that no good MMO should ever have. In fact even Everquest 2 that came out right after WoW didnt have any of that nonsense. It Ruins the Silouette of a Character and makes him less Reckognizeable.

The Combat system is probably the biggest Deal for me. How do you think you can make a TES game with that kind of Combat system? And how do you want to justify it if other MMOs, with LESS funding, already did it realy well (TERA, DCU, even GW 2 to some extent)
Also it seems like it will be the generic "grind" to max level and then PvP. Just look at GW 2 you can go to PvP from level 1 on. thats awsome. Why cant i do that in TESO?

Many of the features just look like copy paste from GW 2 but they seem just too afraid to go full on with this having all kinds of "backup plans" for the other "new" ideas they had (like open dungeons)
and the rest is just justifying why they go for this rediculous WoW style game. Its like its obvious the Dev team is desillusioned over what they are doing.
i just had to chuckle at them saying "some" features had to be cut to make it easier to develop an MMO (Wich is, besides everything lootable, not true btw just look at other MMOs) and as it turns out those "some" were ALL the redeeming features of the TES franchise.
Well played.

its sad. I could keep talking all day about this. but its just sad. i wanted this to be good so hard..

I am in complete agreement regarding player housing. It should be in the game. It's a huge a feature in the Elder Scrolls series. It is potentially a huge time sink for players. Most importantly it has been done before, in far older MMOs. UO, SWG, EQ2, Vanguard, and LOTRO, they all had housing. It was great in SWG, the urban sprawl was a result of lack of regulation and foresight. Vanguard did it the best in my opinion it was just too expensive. Housing can and should be done. This is one concept that can survive the adaption into an MMO.


I don't fully agree with you regarding combat. There are plenty of MMOs from Indy developers that successfully break the traditional combat model. Just because it hasn't been done in a mainstream MMO doesn't mean it should be automatically discounted. However since this game appears to be far along in the development process I will concede the point. You can't completely overhaul a combat system mid stride. If combat is more traditional then so be it.

As for the point of view. I imagine that like most MMOs they will allow players to have either a first of third person perspective. I don't really see this as a hotly contested issue. You can easily do both regardless of the combat mechanics.

I for one think it was a good idea to make the MMO completely unlike the single-player experience. That way, the two games cater to different audiences and the single-player franchise doesn't have to go the way of RTS Warcraft.

Its really hit or miss and Fantasy MMO genre is so overcrowded currently. Tera, Rift, GW2, future games --> Amalur, Everquest Next. Im going to roll with Elder Scroll. I just grew up with them. I just hope Bethesda knows they get a one shot to impress players, be one step ahead instead of 20 step too behind.

This is simply not true.
In theory, a MMO could be shaped into anything you want as long as it allows for thousands of players to play at once in a persistent world. The people preventing change and innovation from happening to the genre are without a doubt the publishers, not the players. And who can blame them? Seemingly safe investments will always win over risky innovations. However, had they done some research prior to designing the game then they could've discovered that the situation has changed in recent years. The traditional formula isn't the most beneficial or cost-efficient any more, nor is it the one people prefer.

I think a MMO which scratched the traditional combat, skill, and leveling-systems in favour of a clean slate could to exceptionally well. So many work hours and resources go into simply fulfilling the so-called expectations of what a MMO should be like; raids, dungeons, quests, hotkey combat and skill system, etc., it's almost ridiculous. Once all of those are in place (and they never fully are), very little time is left to actually work on new and cool stuff.

Ultima Online did a "sandbox mmo" very VERY well in the late 90's, one of the first graphical rpgs otu there. It had the sandbox world (no quests/theme park design like EQ would use a year or so later). You could kill ANYONE anywhere, full loot their bodies with every single thing on them (and no this wasn't "terrible" because in UO items/equipment were nothing like in WoW, where you grinded for them, it was player crafted mostly and did not "make" your character like most rpgs).

In UO you could play how you wanted, you had pkers (reds, people who killled other players) anti-pkers (basically your " good guys" who would hunt reds down) then you had many people in between that didn't care and did other things, such as player crafters, animal tamers and things. Cities (The bank area's) were filled with real players who would come there to hang out, sell goods, etc. Everyrthing felt "Alive" in UO because it was so odynamic and built around providing the players witha sandbox and let them shape the game how they wanted. You could pickpocket in UO (In a city if you were caught doing it, the player could yell Guards and they'd come and kill the pickpocketer).

However since then UO has drastically changed into an "eq" like formula, pvp is no longer open like it was, there's a questing system, and other things. No game since then (From a AAA publisher) has been likle that, built toward a sandbox experience.

As far as your comment about "combat" and how it can't be done that way umm, WWII online did it on on mmo scale over a decade ago. Planetside 1 (2 is in development currently, same fps style combat), You have the recent TERA that literally just came out last week, you have Guild Wars 2 which is coming up doing a fps style combat where you have to actually aim and can dodge attacks, etc. So your "it can't be done" flies out of the window with all these examples, it CAN be done, they just don't want to.

While not a AAA mmo, look at Mortal Online, it's got a GREAT first person view system built into it, complete with mounts and combat like TES, if an Indie developer can do it why can't Zenimax? You do know it can be an OPTION and not forced for everyone right? So those of us that like fpv (which many TES players do, as that's what it's built around, ask Todd Howard) can play it that way, and those of you that want tpv, can have the option to. I mean this is a Win Win for both sides, so why do you not think it shoudl be done?