if you don't pick the locks on any chests then you can't get any juicy loot and every speech option (bribe, intimidate, persuade etc) puts experience in speech and if you don't choose to use speech then you can't continue on some quests, but to make it worse even selling things puts your speech up...so all the guards run around saying "heard about you and your honeyed words.."

If you have a character who refuses to use ranged weapons he has to suffer the consequences of not being able to kill things at a range. If you want a character who can't talk then you can't do quests or shop. There is no reason for mercantile and speechcraft to be seperate skills so they made them the same skills.

Why is it a problem? unless you power level speech early its effect on your overall level will be trivial, and unless you spend a lot of time breaking into peoples houses your lockpick won't go up very quickly either. If you don't mind waiting 24 hours between opening locks you could use the tower stone. And at least some followers can open locked chests(but never doors)

Because Beth seems to barely think through any design decisions and seem to have wildly inconsistent implementations. Remove athletics skill---"Everybody ends up using it anyways." Change speech so it levels up automatically whenever you sell anything.

Because realistically, bartering and picking locks, wait for it, makes you better at picking locks and bartering!!!!

Just because you use a skill, does not mean you have to put Perks into it. My Speech is in the 90's and I have no Perks in it at all.

Not all chests are locked. I think most of the Boss chests, the ones that have the fancy loot, are not locked.

This.


And This. Think of it like in RL; just because you use a skill, doesn't mean you are especially good or skilled in it. A carpenter who does woodwork all day might have a few perks in the associated skill, where as a janitor might do the occasional bit of woodwork, thereby levelling it up, but takes no perks in it as he/she is not skilled in said skill. Hope that makes sense to you and helps make using your skills feesable (cannot spell that word to save my life)?

These two posts made me realize that an atheltics and acrobatics, combined skill, could be added to the game without making "every character use them". Perks are needed in it to actually use it properly.
The only problem would be stopping players from gaining too fast levels in it if they don't want to use it, while at the same time giving those players who use it enough available experience to not make them want to leave Skyrim on for the night, with their character running at a wall the whole time... Perks that increase the experience gained in this skill (two available perks, both double the experience gained.)

I don't think there's any real need to combine the two. They serve sufficiently different roles.

-Athletics would affect sprint speed, stamina loss due to sprinting, charge damage, and would be a more appropriate place for something like the "extra pockets" perk.

-Acrobatics deals with jump height, distance, dodge mechanics, as well as offering perks that mitigate damage like "rolling with the blow".

I'd also be okay with implementing them in such a way that use outside of combat has a lowered effect on improvement than use within combat. Simply sprinting/rolling/jumping everywhere wouldn't be especially effective at raising those skills. Doing so while dealing with enemies would enhance your improvement rate. Other things---a minor "stagger" after a jump to prevent players from linking infinite jumps together, or having stamina determine whether you can jump or not---would also go a long way toward solving any of the problems in the previous system.

Definitely. However, I would've combined pick-pocket and lock-pick to the same skill, thus making room for the new combined "freerunning" skill. Pick-pocket and lock-pick combined to "nimble fingers." This simply because perks make you able to explore both, or only one, of the aspects of an otherwise very shallow and weak skill tree.

Right, I think pickpocketing/lockpicking work better as a singular "security" skill. Pickpocketing is too unimportant. It has no real gameplay benefit beyond allowing you to attain meaningless amounts of gold (as if that's ever been a problem in TES). I don't see it as being large enough in scope for it's own skill.

Lockpicking, in Skyrim, isn't that important either, but I see more room for improvement than I do with pickpocketing. Lockpicking is just as much a navigation tool, opening up new paths for the player to explore, as it is a treasure hunting tool. More focus on the former implementation instead of it just allowing you to grab a few more gems every dungeon would be nice.

As I prepare to be burnt, I actually prefer them as 2 separate skills. Though, I must admit, i've never once put any perks in lockpicking. It is the most unnecessary perk tree on Skyrim. Pickpocketing is a fun tree but only for certain characters. I suppose it is down to each of us to decide which we prefer.

First, pickpocket is not unimportant. Why? You come across a group of bandits, 3 standing right next to each other, you realize there is NO possible stealth route, but you could A) disarm them all
B _)reverse pickpocket an ebony dagger with high enchantments on one of them and slip a frenzy poison/ nightingale subterfuge on their skin or C) place poisons on two of them, killing them, and then slit the throat of the last man.

The lockpicking tree is nice, it may not be nice for you, but its nice for me. I don't see the point of putting every single perk in combat based skills only. I don't look at this game through the prism of combat only.

It's true that there's nothing you can do about speech but lockpicking is hardly necessary. Most of the loot found in locked chests is garbage. My current character is level 57 and hasn't picked a single lock but still I have so much gold and loot I don't know what to do with. The reason I avoid picking locks is because I don't want lockpicking to level at the expense of my major skills. Besides, you can always ask a companion to open any chest.

Skyrim is a combat RPG. Every quest is focused on combat, every cave is hostile, you just described a situation in which pickpocketing is used for combat purposes. Skills only matter insofar as they allow you to kill things more effectively or they allow you to navigate terrain more effectively. Pickpocketing doesn't allow you to navigate the world and in combat, relies on other skills to be effective. Your alchemy skill is immensely more important when it comes to poisons. If you can't make a poison that can actually kill someone, then pickpocketing one on to them is pretty meaningless. So yeah, you can rely on your ability to remove enemies weapons, except that's one of the last perks in the tree. That's an endgame option. How is it useful before that?

Pickpocketing just doesn't have enough unique applications on it's own. Implementing a security skill that focuses on world navigation---through lockpicking---and has combat application---through poison---seems like a much better rounded skill. It's the same reason I support athletics and acrobatics having both combat and non-combat uses. Otherwise they tend to be too specialized, to the point where you can't really build a character around them without grinding.

If you want to meta-game your way through Skyrim, be my guest, but don't dictate to the rest of us that this skill or that skill is useless just because. Everything in this game is a choice, you can get by without a lot of things. But I can tell that you don't have an understanding of pickpocket as both combat and civil purposes. There are times where no stealth route is available and if you prefer up close encounters, pickpocket gives you that option. If you want to fight unarmed, do you just fight that bandit chief with his enchanted weapon or do you disarm him? You can tell which is the smarter choice.

Meta-game? Huh? No one is suggesting that pickpocketing, the action, be removed. I am suggesting it would be better if it were incorporated into a new skill, along with lockpicking, for better pacing and a more rounded experience. You can still use the skill exactly as you had before, but it requires less grinding by expanding it's usefulness.

Pickpocketing is too reliant on other skills---sneak and alchemy, mostly---for it to really stand on it's own. Combining it with lockpicking under "security" makes more sense to me.

wrong. A lot of pure illusion mages use it. Imagination bro, imagination.

I succesfully played a thief character who became guildmaster without ever picking a lock. All I used was the tower sign (one lock opened every 24h). You don't need to loot all the chest you encounter. Plenty of occasions to become rich by selling stuff found.

I don't know what this means.

If you mean someone could become invisible and then use pickpocket, then sure. I suppose that could work. It doesn't address pickpocketing's effectiveness as a stand alone skill. All you're doing is showing that it's reliant on other skills, too.

It's a utility skill....jsut like alteration is a utility skill. You can't kill anyone with alteration, but its faar from useless. The whole basis of your argument toples on itself. You could hypothetically kill someone with just your shield and nothing else, but that would be kind of stupid right?

Well...I would consider all of those to be stealth options.

Also, what kind of poisons are going to kill someone in one "hit"?

Edit: Lingering damage health potions could work if you perk the hell out of alchemy.

My lingering damage health poisons can kill any humanoid in 1 - 2 applications....there's also other poisons too you know, like paralysis, frenzy, fear.

You consider those to be stealth options.....ok.....that's why its under the path of shadow. You can't kill someone with alteration right? Is that useless too?

If pickpocketing had anywhere near the range of applications as alteration---light source, magicka regeneration, damage reduction, water breathing, paralysis, detection---then you might have a point, but it doesn't. And whereas all these effects are self contained within alteration, the only thing pickpocketing can do on it's own is rob people. The only combat effective instances are weapon/armor removal, which aren't possible until you've nearly maxed the skill.

I guess I just don't understand why you're so opposed to the idea of merging lockpicking and sneaking. It's how past games did it, and it worked fine. No one is talking about removing any abilities. The only thing being discussed is what makes for a better skill.

1) you are forgetting about placeing poisons on people which doesn't require a high skill

2) You can't paralye people until high alteration, you can't even detect life for long until you level up and get some decent magicka and enchantments.

3) your logic is incoherent

Also forgot to mention you cn pickpocket your training money back. Useless, right?

Nitpicking much?