Its not untrue actually. The main thing it sells is in-game currency, along with cosmetics and convenience. That falls far below the traditional threshold for "pay to win".

Pay to win refers to selling exclusively through RMT access to equipement or statistic enhancers that are simply and flatly better than what can be earned otherwise.

The high-end Enchantments that practically cant be earned through game play (1% combine chance) in Neverwinter is a better example of a mechanic easy to defend as P2W. GW2 has nothing like this.

No, not opinion. Fact.

It is pay to win. Fact.

It sells gold to players. It is it's own gold seller.

The fact that you don't have a problem with gold selling as a shop option says it all.

Its one of the far more basic and mundane forms of RMT. Its mundane because it ALWAYS exists; if its not sold by the game, it'll be sold for gold sellers anyway. You cant prevent it, no MMO ever did. Might as well let the game itself benefit. In one form or another, practically every MMO now 'sells gold', though its often indirect.

That's still besides my point, which was that your definition of pay to win or buy to win isn't the generally accepted one if you believe this is part of it. Call it a fact all you will, you'll still be wrong. P2W is selling you a Sword +6 for 20$ while the best one you can find in the game is +5.

one is considered cheating and can even get you a ban in the right game. The other is fully endorsing it as a means to get money from people who are willing to spend extra money rather than actually work with their character to get it. I can not see how it does anything other than devalue ingame activities for the player.

I'd rather fight it tooth and nail then to give in and have it be part of the norm.

Also, gold sellers can be stopped. I've seen it in other games. It just has to be done right.

You think gold selling is a good idea for an MMO. I really could care less to argue with someone like you about what the norm is for pay to win.

Right. I totally get that. And again, I've softened my stance on P2P. I will still get the game regardless of subscription model. If it is P2P, I will simply expect more quality to keep me from switching to Black Desert or ArcheAge when those games come out.

But while I concede that you have a less RELIABLE revenue stream, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a smaller revenue stream over all.

And the "can't release content" thing is flat out false. People can dislike GW2 for whatever reasons they want, but it is releasing more content per month than any other MMO on the market right now.

If nothing else, it makes you demand better quality.

Nuff said.

More then likely it will be some form of B2P or F2P with a cash shop, and that is why they are not announcing the payment model yet. Because there will be a loud hate against either one of those options as anyone who knows anything about MMO's know that P2P is the cheapest way to get the whole game and know you are not missing out on anything that they are selling in the store for real money.

Sadly MMO developers have become greedy and know that as long as they sell items in their store that equal pay to win, as in STO's starship sales and Neverwinters armor and weapon sales and the locked loot boxes that you need to purchase keys to open they can say...no we don't sell pay to win items in our store we just sell the keys to get you those pay to win items and its a gamble IF you will ever get what you are looking for in locked loot boxes because they all have random items in them, some items are good, some not so good.

They also put in a way to get all of those items just by playing the game but that becomes a grind and if you don't mind grinding in Cryptic's free to play MMO's you can get everything for free, in STO you grind dilithium and sell it for Zen and in Neverwinter you grind astral diamonds and sell that for Zen. Zen is their game currency which equals real money...

So having explained how Cyptic/Perfect World's free to play MMO's work the B2P payment model can work identical to that and I would assume ESO will be one or the other, either B2P with a cash shop or F2P with a cash shop. Not saying I want it to be this way but those are the most popular and profitable ways to market an MMO now days.

Never said that GW2 wasn't pushing out content. I'm saying at some point in time they won't be making enough money TO make that type of content pushing they are doing.

The difference is negligible; some farmer accounts get banned when its cheating, but it still happens on a mass scale and small time buyers get away with it. If you were telling me there was a magic way to prevent that, I'd be against it too, but over the years and the numerous MMOs I've played, I've come to realize we might as well go along with the inevitable.

And now that there are MMOs which have both subscriptions and legitimate ways to buy gold, this mechanic is becoming almost ubiquitous. It could absolutely exist in ESO; but if it doesn't, then you'll have as usual a sprawling black market providing the service.

I guess you are saying you don't know anything about MMOs?

P2P = you have to buy the game. you get 30 days free play then you play x dollars a month.

B2P= you have to buy the game. Done.

How is P2P " the cheapest way to get the whole game and know you are not missing out on anything that they are selling in the store for real money."?

Paying for any sort of advantage over another player who DOESN'T pay is the very definition of pay to win. Regardless if it's gold, gear, or something as simple as an experience boost (looking at you, WoW. what are you thinking?)

I think you got this the wrong way round. I bet you the game will be P2P but they aren't releasing it because of all the hate they would get from TES players. If the game was going B2P (I don't know why you would even mention F2P it will never release as such) they would have already said this because that's what the TES playerbase wants. They want to pay for it once and that's it

Again, no. Conveniences and gap-closers have never traditionally been considered "Pay to win". Thats a term historically reserved for being able to buy something that no one else will be able to earn in game through regular play. It goes beyond "He didnt have to work as far as I did because he paid"; it means "No matter how hard I try I will never be able to get this unless I open my wallet". The advantage generally also needs to be substantial enough to make the gap extremely hard to close by in-game means.

To get back on topic, one of the largest issues I see now with subscriptions is that it no longer prevents full-blown cash shops. Games with subs are now more than happy to sell you the usual 'store' conveniences and cosmetics and sometimes effective ways to purchase currency and experience WHILE STILL charging 15$/month. Under that kind of deal, the old argument that it ends up cheaper that way is dead, unfortunately. I'm all for P2P but make it classic P2P; no store. The day there's a store, its gotta be B2P or F2P, IMO.

Wrong, B2P always has a cash shop and yes if you never shop then its done as you say but all they do is put locked loot boxes into the game and you can only get them open by purchasing keys in the shop. There is regular loot too but if you want the GOOD loot you need to buy something to get it...does Guild Wars have a shop? I think it does and it is the model for B2P is it not? I could be wrong because I have never tried either Guild wars or Guild wars 2 and they are probably the only MMO's I have never played.

And seeing as I have played just about every MMO there is I do know exactly what the payment models are and how they effect your wallet.

P2P is the cheapest because for like 50 cents a day you get access to everything the game has to offer where either B2P or F2P you need to pay real money for items in their store and it is always more expensive then 50 cents a day, this is a fact.

Is there some kind of Websters dictionary you can prove this with? No?

Then let's break it down shall we? You pay for gold. Gold buys you stuff. Stuff helps you win. /done.

Nm, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that P2P was the cheapest way to see the game.

I still don't see why people would be upset with p2p, unless they are too cheap or poor. *shrug*

What they don't realize is P2P is the cheapest way to play an MMO. Instead all they see is the $15 a month payment and think that somehow that is expensive however if you break it down to a daily basis it is actually very cheap entertainment and probably one of the cheapest of all types of entertainment there is. 14.99 divided by 30 days in a month....equals... .4966666666667 cents per day or rounded out to 50 cents a day and any game with a cash shop is always WAY more then that....ALWAYS.

/agree