Since it's looking like this a "by the book" MMOization of TES, will the awesome TES sneaking mechanic be replaced with the ridiculous permanent invisibility stealth of almost all other MMOs? If so, you can kiss my money goodbye because stealth has always been my favorite way of playing TES games, but not if it's the mindless invisibility of most MMOs.

yes, you'll be invisible to other players when sneaking.

but it was the same in any other TES game, never was any other player able to see you when sneaking...

Stealthing will drain stamina, and you will appear as a shroud to yourself and allies, and while near enemies.

Hmm...

Well it does make you invisible yes. Otherwise the skill would be worthless. The same thing happens in SP TES games, you become invisible to NPCs based on an equation that takes into account things like lighting, distance, weight, and movement speed.

But the system in TESO will remind you a lot of the system in Skyrim, right down to the eye. When you "fail" to sneak, you become visible again to your opponent. Sneaking also uses up stamina.

So far from being mindless, you will need to think about how often and when you use it, how fast you move, what armor you wear, what you enemy's line of sight is, how dark it is, ect. Much like Skyrim.

If you're actually talking about the visual effect being invisible rather than sneaking, it is nearly impossible to have a true sneaking mechanic where the visual effect isn't that of an invisible character. You would need a cover system with lots of objects to hide around, realistic shadows that you can actually move into and be hidden in the darkness, plus nobody would be allowed to look in a direction their character isn't facing: imagine if you will looking at your character's face (3rd person perspective) and you see someone sneaking in some bushes behind you; your character wouldn't see the guy but you would so therefore your guy can see him. It would take some really creative true shadows, objects, and cover system to not have the invisibilty effect on screen. In an MMO like this that is pretty impossible. Only time I've seen this work in any type MMO is that where it's always first person and there are real camo affects going so that you can blend into the environment.

This is the situation where gameplay takes precedence over realism.

You call that awesome? How would that work in pvp? It's already ridiculous in single player TES that nobody's reacting to a stranger approaching them in broad daylight in that hilarious posture, but trying that against mentally healthy players?

They said in one of their interviews that sneaking is going to be entirely line of sight based anyway, the amount of light shining on you won't effect your sneaking like it did previous games, as soon as a mob sees you in range their attacking you.

I guess what I mean, will we have to be careful while we are sneaking like in the SP games? There is sneak and there is invisible in the SP games, sneak you have to avoid being seen, walk behind people, etc. Invisible in the SP game is exactly like stealth in most MMOs, you don't need to do anything because no one can see you no matter what most of the time. Also, TES games have sound that you make when you sneak that you need to manage, no MMO has ever done this to my knowledge. I just don't how they can implement sneak like this in a multiplayer environment and still call it a TES game, and the sneak mechanic in TES games is imo the best in any RPG.

Yes. Did you miss my post?

You will have to actually sneak like the SP games. Its not just invisibility for 30 seconds or some such thing.

Yes in Cyrodiil, no in PvE zones.

From what I remember in skyrim sneak was ridiculously OP (with high enough skill) so Im not sure what you are on about. I could see me, but to everyone else I might as well have been invisible.

edit: I certainly hope sneak isnt just a on/off mechanic (as in other games) and considers your sneak skill level (like in tes games).

If this was the same "sneak aka go invisible AND virtually un-attackable by anything other than aoe" that you see in Wow, I'd probably agree with the OP.

It isn't though. Sneaking uses stamina, and you need to do it "right" otherwise you'll be seen.

Win.

I would prefer more subtle effects of sneaking. Remaining out of LoS should be mainly situational based, and making no noises could be based on the skill score:

- They could introduce a fade-in mechanic so that avatars are only displayed when you really look straight for more than 1 second and not just spin around.

- They could introduce a sound-based detection so that you would hear that non-sneaking avatar behind you.

Based in this, sneaking is a little bit disconnected from their CRPG-typical aspect of allowing nasty sneak-attacks. "Sneak" attacks are simply attacks against an unaware avatar, which can also happen in the midst of battle by a chargin warrior which you overlooked in the heat of battle, but also when being sneaked-upon on your nightwatch.

IMO, everything else will move TESO uncomfortably close to any other you-name-it MMORPG.

My fear is that the devs will cater to the pansies that want the full invisibility stealth of so many other mmos. Imo, if you're in the open, I should be able to see you. Players should need skill and an awareness of their environment and surroundings to remain unseen, not some chicken[censored] spell to just waltz around undetected.

And how exactly would you design the world so players could use objects, shadows, etc all over Cyrodiil for stealth purposes? That's impossible, that's only possible in stealth games like Thief. In an MMO where stealth is only one of many classes, the total invisibility is the best way to balance things. It is a trade off anyway, in order to enhance stealth the rogue can't invest points in other combat skills, so it's rather squishy when detected.

Correct, also the rouge / thief / sneaker uses up stamina while they do it, and with aoe etc going off its going to be hard to sneak attack anyone in the midst of battle as if you take damage you are also unstealthed.

Very situational skill set already, and although it's not like it is in Thief, id consider it balanced for this mmo... So far anyway lol

Not only will AoE spells make you unstealth, but there will be Detect Life spells that are suppose to help you find people who are in stealth mode too.

I hope that the devs try to keep stealth at least somewhat similar to past TES titles and ignore those that want it to be something completely different. It sounds like you dont even want a stealth skill.

Me too - Some mmo's simply have it as a "can't see me, can't hurt me, can't target me... ever" button.

I say no to this.

I really don't. Being able to be infront of someone and they cannot see you is just wrong. I hate that crap even in single player games. If you're in my field of vision and not hiding behind a tree, column, bush, etc, I should be able to see you. Period.

This. And I never understood why only rogue classes can have sneak-attacks. Every combat-versed character can approach from behind and slit your throat with a dagger, I would say.

As I said, they could use an audio based system. How often have I been jumped upon while plugging that herb or mining some ore, and the guy didn't need to be a rogue for that. If they would have sounds of armor, footsteps, breathing, I would have been warned in time. So, rogues could have a skill which eliminates sounds and it would be perfectly good for stealth.

In order to compensate a very little bit and to avoid perma-spinning, you could have this fade-in mechanism I described, which is a kind of toned-down invisibility mechanism.

Sounds like someone never used 100% chameleon in Oblivion

I know I certainly didn't. I had chameleon but it felt cheap and it killed the immersion for me.

I already felt weird when I was sneaking in Skyrim, around a corner, and right into a guard staring at me but not reacting. Ever since then I stayed away from overpowering my skills because this just kills immersion.

Yup. I beat the main story lines of skyrim with a sneak of 25 +/-. I applied the same ruleset to myself that I applied to the game: If there's nothing to hide behind, they should be able to see me.