The mass murder of the civilians of Vault 111 is attributed to his predecessor (or one of them). There is the possibility the pscyhopathy is institutionalized, or at least pervasive enough there's a reasonable enough chance of pscyhopaths being reared within the Insittute that more than one Director in the last 60 years has been one.

I am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but that's personal opinion, and others may.

I see a lot of wild speculation with no foundation in any presented facts.

Having no sense of wrongdoing doesn't make it any more right. That Brian Virgil understands and is cognizant of how unethical the research is, to the point of actively sabotaging it and escaping, shows that the scientists of the Institute understand ethics (and ignore them). They have numerous members in their ranks that either have experienced the Commonwealth somewhat, or were born and raised there and understand exactly what the folks above are like (Madison Li, a division head).

Hancock's a junkie, yes, but he's never treated as dishonest. He's brutal and at times ruthless. This revelation also comes during one of his 'approval' scenes with the SS, meaning he's more likely to be honest, not less.

And releasing a group of psychotic, cannibalistic rage monsters on the Commonwealth to 'motivate' them is exactly the type of stunt a psychopath would pull. For crying out loud.

(Also, I didn't say 'simple' beating, I said 'savage', which implies brutality.)

So far as I can tell, we only have evidence for two bad Directors: Shaun himself and his predecessor. The kidnap-and-replace program didn't start until they had Shaun, after all.

Father is responsible for the murders of the Vault 111 civilians.


Kellogg explains it was his decision if you investigate the other cryopods during the Dangerous Minds quest.

Given that Father was an infant at the time, that's literally impossible.

While I assume it was the same Director as when the Vault 111 crime was committed, there is no actual evidence in game of who gave the order to kill Kellogg if intimidation failed during his recruitment scene.

That would be a murder right there, not that I have any sympathy for Kellogg.

Overall, while the lion's share of the guilt lies at Shaun's feet for the events while he was director, "just following orders" doesn't cut it for those that participated in the acts. I doubt that Justin Ayo or Dr. Zimmer would make it to the other side of a legal tribunal, nor would Alana, their assistant. It's a question about what Binet Senior or Loken knew, but if they knew they were manufacturing exact duplicates for the purpose of murder/replacement then they are accomplices, too. I am sure that Holdren knows all about the FEV program and is ducking responsibility. Higgs and Oberly, I think, are not guilty (but that's my opinion only).

Volkert is witnessed experimenting directly upon a Gen3 when you meet him, so yeah...

Applied Sciences and Facilities seem to be the two divisions with the least... stain... to them.

That's assuming they were killed when Shaun was kidnapped. According to Kellogg, Father decided to kill them. Presumably around the same time he decided to release his parent, I guess. Kellogg figured he didn't like having "too many loose ends."

Consider how much I feel Shaun is guilty of when I say this --

He is not guilty of this crime. He is literally a swaddled babe in a scientists arms as a different scientist insures that the Vault 111 civilians suffocate in their cryopods aside from the Sole Survivor.

*shrugs* According to the game's dialogue, the murders took place well after the kidnapping. But you're free to believe what you like.

You are incorrect.

Here's the visual proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvlyDoxddD4

Start at the 8:45 mark on the video. Listen when the player clicks on the scientist and Kellogg's memory states "I don't know why we didn't just refreeze them, I guess the Old Man didn't want so many loose ends..."

Kellogg is referring to Shaun's predecessor (or one of them). Tying up a loose end is euphemism for killing someone, and the Vault 111 civilians were suffocated in their cryopods according to the Vault 111 computers before you leave. They unfroze them, locked them in their cryopods, and left them to suffocate. Only the Survivor was re-frozen.

The entire time this is happening, Shaun is a babe in swaddling clothes in someone's arms.

The upshot, in my opinion, is that the Institute is older than its sins. Many of its leaders are indeed quite guilty, but the Institute itself has too much knowledge and too many resources for me to throw away, not to mention the whole "killing or exiling everyone" thing.

"The old man" is Shaun. Kellogg refers to him as such again in the Diamond City memory with synth!Shaun and says Father set him up too, "another loose end to tie up."

*facepalm*

When presented with video evidence, you just stick to your guns.

Bless your heart, but I think we're done discussing this. I could go scream at a wall instead if I wanted.

wow, video evidence and you still won't admit the truth. You really don't like to be wrong do you. You'd be a great BOS leader

For me Shaun is a product of the Institute, he was raised and is highly regarded by the the Institute so if he is a little schizo its as much that old saying "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" (I know not the exact quote) and Shaun has had absolute power for a long time now. Still Maxson and Lyons (the pro institute guys will love the reference ) both show that an individual in power in Fallout can radically change an organisation.

So could the new Director turn the Institute in to a ethical endeavor, sure of course all of those scientist involved would have to be to taught ethical boundaries and you would have to reprogram a lot of the Security Synths, since in reality they are more like an internal security force with all that entails.

Much harder would be any attempt to make peace with the locals who would quite likely take decades (at least) to get over their well justified hatred.

Hmmm..., I might be a psychopath. I'll have to get back to you.

*hushed voice into radio* "We have another target for replacement. Over."


Also, I didn't mean hancock was lying, just that his drugged out memory couldn't be trusted to be 100% accurate. Dude became a ghoul because he tried to get the ultimate high for craps sake. Not the most reliable individual for clear thinking

Fixed for what really happens on these forums

Well, we have decades. It's not like the locals pose an existential threat to the Institute.

Yeah its not like we have a scared hostile population that has easy access to nukes or anything........assuming that the data of how the Player entered the Institute is still available out there or indeed just its location, seems like a desperate hostile population might have the ability to be a threat to the Institute.

That was a one-use mechanism that depended on exploiting a security flaw the Institute didn't know existed, which is why it was one-use; the hole was patched.

The institute main defence is its 'secret impossible to stumble across location', once you know its location then its just a question of could some wastelanders tunnel or blast their way far enough down to reach the facility. So I'd say not impossible and the means to nuke the Institute are freely available. So while the Institute should be secure, the means to destroy it exist if the locals hatred continues to develop and fester.

Also this is Fallout, there are no perfect unassailable organisations they all can fall or change radically in the next game so IF the Institute's survival becomes canon don't expect it to be a shining light of tolerance and understanding. I'm kind of expecting that it will end up even more unethical in future games.

From the video:

"I never knew why we didn't just refreeze the rest of them, but we had our orders. I guess the old man didn't want so many loose ends. Too bad he left alive the one person he shouldn't have."

"It wasn't my idea to settle down with kid in the middle of Diamond City. I thought it was a terrible idea, actually. But it was one of the old man's pet projects, so here we were. Me and the kid like a happy little family. I ended up liking it a reminder of what things might have been if things had turned out differently. But there's no going back. I knew it was just temporary, and it would be back to normal business before too long. This whole setup was part of some elaborate plan of the old man's. Seems obvious now we were bait for our old friend from the Vault. The timing couldn't have been an accident. That's not how the old man works. I wonder if he outsmarted me in the end. Another loose end tied up."

It's possible Kellogg is referring to two people as the old man. Or the old man is one person, Shaun, who decided to pull the plug on the other vault dwellers when he unfroze the sole survivor. Feel free to mock me if you like, but given the way Kellogg uses the same language of "loose ends" in both memories, I interpret it as referring to one person.

Most likely it is the term he uses for referring to the position of director, not actually referencing an individual

It's possable that Kellogg doesn't know that the baby he kidnapped in the vault, later on ends up being the director of Institute later on. Kellogg had his life extended by the Institute's tech, why wouldn't other importaint Institute people receive the same treatment. While he may have met the director once or even a few times, odds are Kellogg wouldn't maintain constant contact and his orders would usually be passed to him by his handler.

You can never guarantee the future will still be in your image when a leader passes. Someone will always take their place and either follow up the goals and ethics you set, or follow a different path. A good example of this being when Elder Lyons and Sarah Lyons died (in which with Sarah Lyons, she did die in the wasteland, as you pointed out). What was considered a chapter of the Brotherhood to have strayed from the original path to help the people of the wasteland with the leadership of Lyons, the next elder that took their place did a complete turn and turned the Eastern Brotherhood into a militaristic powerhouse that reunited the Brotherhood and returned it to its original goals.

Whose to say it will remain that way forever when Arthur Maxson dies? And if it were to stay the same, would that line of thought that Maxson established actually lead to their ultimate downfall as what happened to the original Brotherhood in the Mojave when they couldn't change and it led to conflicts with the NCR. Or actually what happened to Eastern Brotherhood when they decided to pick a fight with the Institute or Railroad or Minutemen and ultimately lost because of Maxson's ways.

Overall, the most one can do as a leader is make the best of it for their people in their lifetime, and hope future generations follow along. Or hope not, as it could lead to their end.

You know, I started this game pissed at the Institute for taking my son. Along the way I met the Minutemen who, while a little naive in some respects, want to help people. The RR seems to car more about synths than the rest of humanity. And the BOS just wants to kill everything and horde technology for themselves. The Institute has been a-holes in the past, and still kind of are, they want to save humanity through science, but still have some twisted ideas on what that entails exactly. In the end though, the Institute has made the most progress. Also I am sick of settlers who whine for help, shanty towns that call themselves cities, and just a whole lot of crap that annoys me. So now, I may stop the kidnappings as director, if I choose to go that route. The wasteland will be helped under my guidance, under my fist. I'll make the old institute look pitiful and weak....the Minutemen will inherit the Brotherhood's power armor, the RR is crazy and must be purged, and the scientists of the Institute are going to have to learn to interact with the outside world. I will build science centers and schools, and we WILL rebuild the Commonwealth. Under my martial law