I've heard it time and time again, but is it really true?

Well it doesn't really matter because there's a ton of mods that expand the magic system.

That doesn't help if your console

I don't know if magic would have been better, but having all shouts as spells, and using the shout button to cast them would have given us some more options.

Yes, I think the magic system would have been expanded and more interesting in absence of the shout system. Luckily we'll have the opportunity to find out in the next TES.

"Mutilated" is the word I'd use. What bothers me the most is that Shouts overarche all archetypes (warrior,rogue, mage and hybrids) thus making them feel less unique and less far apart.

The problem with this theory is that the spells that where removed where not made into shouts. There is no shout that can open locks, make you breathe under water or give you the chameleon effect for example. And I do not think that the unique shout effects will become spells as mages will be insanely overpowered, they will knock back opponents, whirlwind sprint etc. with no cooldown. Heck, even if they do have a cooldown most players will want to get them. This will also make shouts seem less powerful which in turn makes the Dragons and Dragonborn seem to be nothing special.

I can't even enjoy a mage in Skyrim. It is bland with minimal customization over magic (spellmaking). No freezing fireballs, no lightning bolts that greatly illuminate the area, casting an armor shield that also gives me resistance to all elements AND fortifies my health. The possible ways to combine the spell effects from Oblivion or Morrowind are numerous. Many are useful, and many may be downright useless, but I am a growing student of the arcane experimenting with my very own magical creations, FUN.

Magic in this game is just.... but shouts aren't so great either, i barely use any of them.
I was looking forward to playing a pure mage character in this game, but it just doesn't work... You either have to cheat and get 100% reduction cost since on master at high levels you need to spam skills 583759374 times to kill something and you run out of magicka 8937547 times while doing so, but the WORST thing about magic is that you find yourself acessing the Favs menu A LOT, so you are pausing your game 5893798747389537584937x during a fight, which is the most annoying, flow breaking thing ever. It just does not work at all... It is nice to have Favs, but when it means pausing your game every 5 seconds, no... Just no... Bring back more hot keys in the future, and spell creation as this cuts down the need to Fav 5893757938 spells, please... PLEAAAASE

No because unlike magic, the shouts have limitations, namely their recast timers. You can spam magic all day so long as you have magicka.

yes, simple effects who often exist as potions or enchants, worse just one spell for each effect, why not an master level rune?
An oversight who is not related to the shouts.

I must be a bit weird because I think that the magic in Skyrim is way better than that in Oblivion. Spell combos or spell making would be nice though. But all in all I have way better fights with Skyrim's magic than I did with the coloured blobs of Oblivion. And it's not just a graphics thing either. I have great Mage fights that are more than just spamming your best spell -- which is what Oblivion frequently was-- or the dull backward run while pew pewing away. Skyrim's mage combat requires more thought more planning and better skill than it did in Oblivion. I hope that it progress in the next series.

As to the shouts I don't think that they have any significant impact on the viability or fun of magic in Skyrim. Yeah, some of the shouts duplicate spells, but I tend to run with only three shouts as favourites anyway, and it just isn't an issue for me.

Thats jus stating that the mechanics for shouts and magic are different. The thing is, its pretty clear they put a lot of time into developing the shout mechanic that they could have used to round out the spell system.


Having a seperate button for casting spells is ridiculous, if I'm carrying a sword and shield, or a two-handed sword, how exactly am I casting that spell? Shooting it out of my eyes or nose or something? The combat system of picking whether you want a weapon, or a spell, or whatever, in each hand makes players make choices, rather then making someone who can do everything simultaneously.

Yes and no. Yes, shouts are basically spells available to everyone, which cheapens magic. No, they're not the reason for Skyrim's weak magic system.

Spellcrafting is gone. Conjuration is a shadow of its former self. Mysticism and alteration disappeared almost entirely. This is the real problem, not shouts.

Is it more unrealistic than shooting it out of your hands? I don't know what TES lore says about it, but as I see it, it's perfectly possible to cast a spell by simply saying its formula. Or even just think it - will it - and it's done. You don't need to wave your hands around.

Just playing devil's advocate. I agree that putting spells in your character's hands was an excellent decision. It makes us choose what we want to focus on and let's not forget it looks great! One thing that Skyrim did really well is spell visuals, it's a pleasure to watch my mage burn his opponents to a crisp.

Skyrim's casting mechanics are far better than its predecessors, but it's sorely lacking in spell variety(and the spells REALLY need to scale with your skill, but that's a problem with the entire game)

But no, I don't think shouts took away from magic at all. That was probably time constraints and the overimportance and poor design of perks.

I believe they did yes. It's a complicated answer I could go into extreme length discussing, but I'll just summarize it like this; every unique shout effect could have been a spell.

And then the title Dovahkiin would mean nothing at all, and the Thu'um would be an absolute Gimmick rather than a mechanic that was poorly used.
Yes, some shouts are obviously spell effects(Dismay, Aura Whisper, and fire/frost breath come to mind). However, most of shouts are brand new effects, and making them into spells would give mages an obscene advantage over other classes(Imagine if you had a spell that could replicate unrelenting force, slow time or ice form).

Besides, there's a lot of other effects that could have been spells without taking away from dragon shouts(Taking a leaf from Midas Magic would have been nice

Being Dovakiin doesn't mean I can shout, -anyone- who puts effort into it can shout. but thats all Skyrim puts emphasis on as being a Dovakiin, that you can shout faster and better while using the souls of Dragons as batteries, and barely anything beyond that. it's a valid statement to say the shouts could have been spells as well.

Yes shouts take away from the magic system of Skyrim. How can anyone doubt this; Its free magic, magic for which you don't have to sacrifice and in which you don't have to invest.

Also, there were some pretty glaring problems with the magic system that went completely ignored when they chose to focus on shouts; Balancing a magic system with no cast times or cooldowns for effects is a pretty ridiculous notion from the go. The only delimiting factor from casting spells, no matter how strong or weak, is magicka cost and that makes for a balancing nightmare. They could have focused on producing a much more robust magic system If the same concepts for balancing shouts were implemented.