I've read the Timeline at TIL and I've seen it before but never eally thought about it. it says.
"An immortal hero,warrior, sorceror and, king variously known as Pelinal Whitestreake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir....
That's where it lost me. Isn't Ysmir part of the enantimorph concerning Tiber and Wulfharth?? If so then how does Tiber Septim fit into being an immortal hero???

Ysmir is another name for Wulfharth. He had http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=An+immortal+hero&search_type= long before he teamed up and was duped by Tiber Septim. And both would technically be immortal heroes. Or villains, depending on who you're asking.

Remember that this timeline was given to the Imperial Library by MK long before some of the lore was fully developed, which is why it conflates Pelinal with Ysmir and some other heroes we've never heard of as the archetype of an errant knight. It's worth noting that Ysmir and Pelinal are both considered to be aspects of Shor, though, so it's still somewhat accurate. How accurate, we'll fully discover when the story of Harry Hairy Breeks and Hans the Fox are elaborated upon.

Sorry, I don't really get the question.

thanks. i think ive come up with pointless questions lately too. mind is wandering i think. besides i didnt know pelinal an aspect.

As stated in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml, Wulfharth and Ysmir are not only one and the same, but Ysmir thinks that he is supposed to be the new Emperor that is prophesized to reunite the Empire and defeat the Elves.

But something got majorly screwed up. Wulfharth is not that individual. Why, you may ask? Because an enatiomorphic being known as "Talos" was about to usurp Ysmir-who-is-Shor-who-is-Lorkhan's place in the pantheon. This being was Hjalti Earlybeard / Zurin Arctus.

Now what? Could he re-usurp what had been usurped? Possibly.

The stories vary. Wulfharth either:

1. Killed Hjalti by putting his soul into Numidium, taking Hjalti's enantiomorphic place in "Talos", which is why Talos is also called "Ysmir".

2. Killed Zurin by putting his soul into Numidium, taking Zurin's enantiomorphic place in "Talos", which is why the heartless Underking is called "Zurin Arctus".

3. Was killed by the enantiomorph.

4. Was not a part of the enantiomorphic story at all, making http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml an untrue tale.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Or filled the third or fourth role in the dance.

I reviewed both the heresy and the orthodoxy last night and found I preferred the former in every case. I just miss the image of Zurin Arctus as a principle foil to Hjalti's ruthlessness, objecting to his use of the NUmidium and finally betraying him.

But I guess liars can make a cracking good story too.

Let us not forget that "Trinity In Unity" is the Third Walking Path. (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#27)

Perhaps those three beings needed each other to assume the mantle of "Talos".

The Tribunal needed each other to assume the mantle of ALMSIVI. Yet, one slew the other, who was in turn slain herself, leaving only one to ascend to CHIM as a mortal. I am, of course, referring to Vehk, the last Triune.

Perhaps "the Red King Once Jungled" and his CHIM needed the other two individuals?

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Why is he also known as the Two Faced King, not three?

I think that "Talos" is enantiomorphic, and the Sermons were referring to that being. "Tiber Septim" usurped one-half of the "two-headed ruling king" enantiomorph. However, that left the half that should have ascended kept in limbo in the form of "the Underking", who did not get to experience death until the Warp In The West released his (whichever it was) Heart from Great Numidium.

Now, since we know from http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml that reaching certain types of divinity require the person to die, "Talos" did not ascend and be recognize as a Divine until after both halves had experienced death, which was until TES III.

Perhaps this is why the Ghost of Shor (i.e., Lorkhan) has been described as being in a state of "half-death". (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml#6)

I must state, however, that this is just my theory, and I have had people disagree with me. Nonetheless, I feel the need to post it.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

You're really not being creative with this.

Pelinal Whitestreake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Wulfharth, Talos, Arctus, The emperor Zero et etc etc are all links in a long chain of rebel/king relationships. Who is to say there are only two heads to the red king? Or three? Or eight? Or twenty?

And you are also forgetting that Talos IS Ysmir IS Arctus. Their individuality is all an illusion. Before Mundus, all three (or more) were the same bing, just as all the Dwemer were once the same god before Mundus sundered the god Numidium.

Because Tiber Septim is the Cyrodiilic aspect of Talos and Ysmir the Nordic aspect. Arctus isn't worshipped or recognized as Talos anywhere. After all the whole show that put Talos up there is a mythic reenactment, but not a god in itself.

---

Mortazo & Merchant,

stop shoveling old dust around. You can use it to infer the existence of a concept but because it stands alone and is seemingly out of place the information itself can no longer be seen as relevant, the concept might be.

Mortazo,

it's reenactment, imitation. Capital IS is out of place, either because it would be meaningless as all is One or because it's too strict, Tiber, Ysmir and Arctus are still different persons. ANU IS PADOMAY works, different iddenties but the same thing. Talos IS Ysmir IS Tiber works too because Tiber hijacked his identity onto the frame work, but Arctus just ain't there.

Yes he is. Ysmir hijacked Acrtus's identity. I guess you forget the entire game Daggerfall, in which Ysmir was walking around in Arctus's corpse telling everyone he was Arctus. And thus by process of association, Arctus is Talos. Arctus IS Ysmir IS Talos.

And stop acting like "the authority". Your opinions are just as valid as everyone else's, but you certainly aren't right ( no one really is).

The Arcturian Heresy was Morrowind. In Daggerfall the Underking was just Arctus and nothing to show it was anything else. I've gotta borrow your copy of Daggerfall someday though.

Besides, that's not how the impersonation game works. Simply claiming to be somebody doesn't make you that person. You have to act like them. The Underking in Daggerfall acted like nobody in particular. The simplest way to consider it is to take that the Underking Zurin Arctus was retconned to be the Underking Ysmir. Works.

The other alternative is to consider that it was Zurins heart that went into the Numidium, which also works. It only breaks the the idea from the heresy that a relation to Lorkhan is required to power the Numidium, but all that matters really is that it's just a source of power.

The third is what you suggest but it doesn't provide a motivation. Why would Ysmir claim to be Zurin? What would be the point in that? Why even try to become anything when you already are the avatar of a god?

I paid an arm and a leg for it, so that's not going to happen.

What I was trying to make the point of is that in Daggerfall, the Underking makes sure that the whole world identify him as Arctus. Then, after reading the Heresy (which is something from Morrowind I do like) it can be applied to the Underking's constant declarations of being Arctus to show the Ysmir was purposefully associating himself with Arctus.

Yeppers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HaCrJK46TU. Or something. Arctus is the guy who acts as intermediary so that the one guy doesn't have to acknowledge that he's got an equal in the other.

The Arctus/Ysmir problem is a separate thing.

In the Sermons, Tiber is the two headed king: twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king. And a river that fed into the mouth of the two-headed king, because he contained multitudes..

A certain obscure text calls him many-headed, though, but not entirely convinced "many" means "three".

Here's the thing: Tiber can be "two headed" and still contain three (or more) persona. One of the heads just has to also be many headed. And then we can go down the line and have a nice gradient of heads.

That is how I see it. Zurin's relation to Lorkhan, and therefore his heart being a legitimate power source, comes from the power of the reenactment. Tiber betrays both Ysmir and Zurin, by sending them against each other, but it is Zurin who loses his heart. The Arcturian Heresy almost strikes my as a recounting of what happened between the three of them, like Ysmir is pulling an Alandro Sul, regardless of it trying to discount Zurin as Underking.

It could be counted as a throw away line at the beginning, but Morrowind refers to Zurin as the Underking as well. Of course you could also say that the quote is attributed to Zurin based on the common perception that Zurin is the Underking and therefore isn't a good piece of evidence.

Xal also refers to Tiber/Zurin as the two pieces of the enantiomorph, but some of the other stuff he mentions about them and Anumidum doesn't seem to be relevant anymore so perhaps that whole thing has been retconned.

I'm old and set in my ways. :snoring:

I can't hear the new stuff due to my bones creakin'.

Heh heh. I do what I can. :twirl:

___TWM

Hmm... could all those heads be the voices accessible via the Amulet of Kings?

Personally, I feel like they are three individuals. Hjalti, Arctus and Ysmir. (though their specific names might be different whatever.)

Hjalti- represented mundane strength, Zurin represented magical strength and Ysmir spiritual. (Or some other combination, all I'm saying is that they each brought a very necessary element to the table that was needed to basically take over all of Tamriel) It's hard to say where Ysmir is "from." The Arcturian Heresey says he was "adopted" by the Nords, though he's often described as Nordic or with Nordic features. He might very well be originally Atmora. Hjalti is clearly Nordic, and Zurin Arctus? Well, High Rock?

I think it's fairly clear that Hjalti was the dominant personality. Zurin and Ysmir were both the "Underking;" in the most literal sense. Remember that (According to the Arcturian Heresy) Septim didn't claim the mantle of "Emporer" until after both Ysmir and Arctus were essentially gone. They could have all been "kings" before then of some sort, or had planned to share power or the empire, but with "Septim" as the central authority. This would account for 'multiple kings' theme, as well give credence to both Zurin and Ysmir being referred to as "Underking."

It's not impossible that, needing the illusion of a single, sole ruler, "Tiber Septim" was simply a guise they made up that perhaps ALL used, (Everyone is Septim, therefor everyone is Talos) or more likely just was used between the Underking and Hjalti. Sop three faces or four as one- the many faced king. Hjalti perhaps assumed the role more often than the others. When the Underking and Arctus were no more, Hjalti took on the role permanently, stepping into the guise of "Tiber Septim" permanently, though the name, and perhaps even the image of Tiber Septim is not his own (two-faced King.)

The Arcturian heresy states: "The Underking arrives and is ambushed by Imperial guards. As he takes them on, Zurin Arctus uses a soulgem on him. With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest." I'm tempted to believe that while much of Ysmir's power was trapped in the Soulgem, somehow it was trapped with Zurin's actual soul while the Underking's soul escaped, albiet drained of much of his power.

I like your idea, Mote, mainly because it's roughly close to mine, sans the first part you stated about the three representing different traits; I didn't come to a conclusion like that in mine.

Here's something that's always thrown me off: why the hell would the Underking come back and assist Pelagius, Tiber's grandson, if he was Arctus or Wulfharth? The only conclusion i can come to is that he either somehow assisted in his assassination (which semi doesn't make sense; why wait as long has he did?) or he's the "current incarnation" of Tiber Septim, that is, he was whoever was Tiber before the Enantiomorph happened.

We hear of this in the Arcturian Heresy, which, I believe, disavows Arctus' role in history and regards the Daggerfall Underking as 100% Wulfharth. Therefore it would make sense that he still wants to rule "his" Empire, which was his goal all along.

It's just old Shor-Face popping up again, after reincarnating.

That makes sense.

It makes me think who the hell wrote "The Arcturian Heresy." And also how many more Underkings popped up in history if this one was "undocumented...."

Lorkhan reincarnates constantly.

"The children of Fadomai tore out the Heart of Lorkhaj and hid it deep within Nirni. And they said, "We curse you, noisy Lorkhaj, to walk Nirni for many phases." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/clanmother.shtml)

Merethic Era - "An immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wanders Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again." (http://www.imperial-library.info/history/merethic.shtml)

Notice how Lorkhan is supposed to be alternately a warrior (Hjalti Earlybeard), a sorceror (Zurin Arctus) and a king (Ysmir, or King Wulfharth). What happens when he shows up in more than one incarnation at a time?


___TWM

Aaah, makes a great deal of sense, man. Thanks for that.

I noticed you said "hero" as well, and of course I thought of Talos, which in turn makes me think of the idea that Talos (NOT Tiber Septim) is more of an amalgamation of many "heroes" themselves rather than just one person. Would I be right about that?

1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N

:dance: