My Theory:
Hjalti Early-Beard was born in Alcaire, High Rock. At least one of his parents was a Nord (evidenced by his Nordic name and the fact that you can find people of any race in any province, especially in the chaos of the 2nd era), or he was adopted by Nord parents. He learned how to fight from the sword-masters of Alcaire along with a close Nord friend (as told in the TES VI: Skyrim Misc quest The Ghost of Old Hroldan). When Hjalti is in his late teens/early twenties, he leaves High Rock and goes to Skyrim for some reason (maybe just to seek his fortune). There he is summoned by the Greybeards (in a way similar to how the player is summoned in TES VI) who reveal his identity as dragonborn and name him Ysmir, Dragon of the North, as per Arngeir's dialogue in TES VI (he either learns some shouts shortly before this from Nord Chieftains or learns shouts and his status as dragonborn all at once). They tell him he will unite Tamriel, but must go south to do so. His first big act after learning his destiny is to take Old Hrol'dan back from the Witchmen of High Rock for the Nords. His use of the voice to win causes him to be dubbed Talos (meaning Stormcrown in Atmoran) by the troops under his command. During the battle, his old friend from Alcaire dies, never having heard Hjalti's new title. Hjalti, now known as General Talos, now enters the service of Emperor Cuhlecain, and assumes the throne of Cyrodiil after Cuhlecain's death (who he probably did assassinate, but also it could really have been a nightblade). He (again) gives himself a new name, Tiber Septim, which he will be called until his death. He conquers the rest of Tamriel using the Numidium, and either betrays or is betrayed by his Imperial Battlemage, Zurin Arctus. The Numidium is destroyed (for the first time) and Zurin becomes the Underking. Hjalti Early-Beard a.k.a Ysmir a.k.a General Talos a.k.a Tiber Septim rules Tamriel for 81 years, and era of unprecedented peace and prosperity for all its peoples. When he dies in 3rd Era 38, his great works and status as dragonborn cause his soul to accend into Godhood, and he becomes the Divine Talos. Just as all the aedra embody an essential aspect of Mundus or it's people, Talos represents strength, honor and courage, which all mortals can have.

I don't think the order matters particularly much. For example, I am under the impression that even at Hrol'dan, he was already serving as Cuhlecain's general. You also gloss over the reason for his success there a little: Hjalti was not Ysmir by his own merit, but because he had Ysmir's support from that day onwards. The two need eachother to further their respective goals, but eventually Tiber betrays Ysmir and binds him into the Numidium, passing it off as assassination attempt by Arctus.

I feel people always overlook the obvious reason why Talos was canonized. It's not some sort of honorary thing or because he represents some sort of ideal. It's because he deliberately tried to make it happen and because in life and death he took the place of the conspicuously missing ninth god that always should have been there in the first place.

Thirdly, I'd like to make a little note on the title of the 'Arcturian Heresy'. The original poster interprets it quite correctly if you ask me, but I am often under the impression people like to dismiss it because it is called a 'heresy' and they therefore assume it's meant to be lies. However, the whole point about calling this account a heresy is to indicate that within Tamriel it would be staunchly denied and passed off as slander. Which on our side of the fourth wall means that it is most definitely true, because otherwise it would never have been written.

As I recall the Greybeard spoke the same things to the Dovahkiin that they said to Tiber Septim/Hjalti. As part of it involves proclaiming the person to be Ysmir, it stands to reason that the Greybeards had to have also proclaimed Tiber Septim/Hjalti to be Ysmir.

I see the Arcturian Heresy cited so often that I'm not sure what the orthodox account is supposed to be. The biggest problem with it of which I'm aware is that it doesn't seem to square with what the Underking says in Daggerfall: that he is Zurin Arctus, and the Mantella is his own heart.

If anything, I think we've been inclined to assume the Arcturian Heresy is the true account precisely because it's got 'heresy' in the name. There seems to be a trope that anytime something is presented as an heretical opinion or a conspiracy theory within an imagined world, it turns out to be the truth. I've assumed that the real point is that this is an important event about which we are supposed to be uncertain.

Talos is three people: Hjalti (High Rock), Wulfharth (Skyrim), Zurin Arctus (Cyrodiil). So he's both Breton and Nord. By the time Tiber Septim ascends to Aetherius, all three personalities have blended to one.

He can't be studied from a conventional standpoint, especially viewing him as a single person.

Remember, Wulfharth was rejected by the Greybeards as he had nothing from Aka. The creation of the Mantella has always been the point where the story broke and became cyphered, and yet we know he [Talos] achieved CHIM, which is a separate event from mantling any existing power on Mundus and beyond. When was that? Or perhaps, when is not the right question to ask.

What do you mean became cyphered? Also I've never heard that Talos achieved CHIM. Somehow he used CHIM, but I don't know how that works.

Behold - landscape alteration through thu'um.
Is it from Wulfharth, who could not resist the greeting shout of the Greybeards? Or perhaps of a mundane Imperial mage? No. It is all of Hjalti, and him alone.

But it is accepted fact that Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, and Tiber Septim are all one. Also Talos used CHIM as a tool. If he had achieved it, he wouldn't be a Divine, he would be everything.

Oh, but they are not one.
They are a part of a reenactment play of Anuiel, Trinimac and Lorkhan, culminating with Hjalti becoming Talos, Arctus becoming Underking, and Wulfharth becoming the Mantella. They all played a part in the play. But only one achieved CHIM and become Talos Stormcrown. Being used is not the same thing as being.

They are the same. Google "enantiomorph". The three are all chiral images of each other. Tiber Septim's personality did change at various points in his life. The Tiber Septim who died in the 3rd Era was not the Tiber Septim who fought with Cuhlecain, who was different from the Tiber Septim who rebuilt the Numidium.

When Tiber Septim betrayed Zurin Arctus, that betrayal was a reenactment of Lorkhan's death, with Arctus' heart being blown out, mantling Lorkhan. When he mantled Lorkhan, he became a piece of Lorkhan's Oversoul. When Ysmir's soul was trapped in the Mantella, Ysmir, the Underking should have ceased to exist, but the Underking still reemerged with his same personality, something that should have been impossible with his soul in the Mantella, but it was Zurin Arctus now, except he was near identical to Wulfharth-Ysmir. In that way, those two became one as well. Furthermore, both Tiber Septim and Wulfharth were avatars of Shor existing at the same time, and when Zurin Arctus mantled Lorkhan, he became the third part of the enantiomorph. They all became Shor.

Wulfharth was, Tiber [Hjalti] certainly wasn't.



Yes. Who and what were they reenacting? There are three actors, three characters to be played. Who of the characters is to be mantled, and by which actor? Yes - the reenactment culminated with the Mantella being born, parallel to the birth of the Lorkhan's heart and the Red Tower when Trinimac torn his heart. Mantella's wielder could have the power similar [yet lesser] to Lorkhan's heart. Talos used it, via Nimidium. Using it granted him the power of Lorkhan, but he still wasn't an avatar of Lorkhan, neither was he an aspect of Lorkhan. This power gave him the ability to strive towards CHIM, just as Vehk used the power and knowledge of the Heart to achieve CHIM.

Also, Talos never took the place of Shor as the ninth, as Shor, by definition, is always the missing.

Tiber Septim was Shor just as much as Wulfharth was. They were both Ysmir. That is accepted fact.

You're just restating what I said but adding a different conclusion. Zurin Arctus mantled Lorkhan when he was betrayed, and his heart was blown out. Tiber Septim didn't mantle anyone because he was born an avatar of Shor. Wulfharth was Shezzarine as well. If anything, Tiber Septim mantled Ysmir by learning Thu'um.


and again from the same text:


Ysmir has widely existed long before Tiber Septim. See Pelinal:


And of course Wulfharth:


Now what do Wulfharth and Pelinal have in common? They're both Ysmir, and they're both Shezzarines. Tiber Septim is Ysmir. That cannot be doubted in any sense. He is also Shezzarine. Ysmir is the ghost of Shor, so it is impossible to be Ysmir and not be Shezzarine, Shor, Lorkhan.

And the Mantella was not created when Wulfharth's soul was sapped. The Mantella was just a soul gem made to power the Numidium. When Wulfharth's soul was svcked, a reflection of the enantiomorph was housed inside, so Tiber Septim's soul was inside it as well along with Arctus' and Wulfharth's. Tiber Septim still had a soul, but it was a three-in-one soul.

Note that not one quote I provided was from Arcturian Heresy. This corroborating evidence proves my point. If you want to argue that Tiber Septim was not Shezzarine or that Tiber Septim, Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus were not all the same, you'll have to do so by first arguing the invalidity of:

-The Five Songs of King Wulfharth
-Varieties of Faith in the Empire
-Rislav the Righteous
-Before the Ages of Man

Guys, you have to bear in mind that many written sources are false. "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Alduin/Akatosh_Dichotomy" claims that Alduin must be Akatosh; http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth claims that Malacath summoned the ghost of Alduin to eat away the years of the Nords. TES V: Skyrim clearly shows that A) Alduin is not Akatosh, but merely the first Dragon ever created, and thus a very powerful demi-god; and Malacath could not have summoned the "ghost" of Alduin as he was NOT DEAD, having instead been transported through time by Felldir the Old using an elder scroll. Also, the "Five Songs..." is a very unreliable source. As stated above, Malacath could not have possibly summoned Alduin's "ghost" and Alduin could not eat away time itself, as he would have done so if he could during the main questline of TES V. I just as Alduin's legend was built up over the ages, going from the most powerful dragon to Akatosh himself, I think that King Wulfharth's story grew distorted over time. In all likelihood, Wulfharth was just a very powerful tongue (and possibly also a Dragonborn) who became King of Skyrim and then died ONCE, at the Battle of Red Mountain in 1st Era 700. Ysmir is, I think, just a traditional title given to Dragonborn, based on the Greybeard's greeting of the Dragonborn after he has completed their trials in TES V.

Also, Zurin Arctus WAS the Underking, and the mantella WAS his heart. He says so in the actual game! What more proof do you need?

Guys, you have to bear in mind that many written sources are false. "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Alduin/Akatosh_Dichotomy" claims that Alduin must be Akatosh; http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth claims that Malacath summoned the ghost of Alduin to eat away the years of the Nords. TES VI: Skyrim clearly shows that A) Alduin is not Akatosh, but merely the first Dragon ever created, and thus a very powerful demi-god; and Malacath could not have summoned the "ghost" of Alduin as he was NOT DEAD, having instead been transported through time by Felldir the Old using an elder scroll. Also, the "Five Songs..." is a very unreliable source. As stated above, Malacath could not have possibly summoned Alduin's "ghost" and Alduin could not eat away time itself, as he would have done so if he could during the main questline of TES VI. I just as Alduin's legend was built up over the ages, going from the most powerful dragon to Akatosh himself, I think that King Wulfharth's story grew distorted over time. In all likelihood, Wulfharth was just a very powerful tongue (and possibly also a Dragonborn) who became King of Skyrim and then died ONCE, at the Battle of Red Mountain in 1st Era 700. Ysmir is, I think, just a traditional title given to Dragonborn, based on the Greybeard's greeting of the Dragonborn after he has completed their trials in TES VI.

Also, Zurin Arctus WAS the Underking, and the mantella WAS his heart. He says so in the actual game! What more proof do you need?

Sorry, posted twice by mistake. How do you turn off emoticons?

Orkey is not Malacath, that's Mauloc. Orkey is the nord's Arkay, who isn't nice and was removed from Skyrim. And Arkay is lesser form of Aka, as he is bound by time and has to define life and death. By saying "summoning the ghost of Alduin" it's meaning "he shortened everyone's time."

And there was something about Wulfharth and Zurin ended up blending, and the confusion as to who killed who.

Too literal. Even before Skyrim, Alduin was never dead. Just asleep. In this instance, I think "ghost" means "specter" or "shadow". Something that carries the same essence or concepts as Alduin himself, but to a lesser degree.

Why would Arkay hate Nords? Why would Arkay summon a ghost to eat peoples time? I think that Orkey is Malacath, and that the similar sounding name to Akray is misleading. Why would the Aedra of Funeral rites and burials curse a particular race? That sounds like the actions of a Daedra to me (Azura cursed the Chimer to become the Dunmer, remember). Like Alduin/Akatosh, this is just another case of mistaken identity.

That does not mean Shor did not fight Alduin. Also, can you prove to me Alduin cannot eat away time itself? Paarthurnaax associates him with ending the kalpa and ending time, so yeah, in a way he does eat time. If we can't trust him, we might as well throw everything Skyrim throws us out too. All this "just a powerful dragon" crap is false even in regards to Skyrim. And Wulfharth ruled over Skyrim as High King around 480-500, First Era. So either he is immortal, or a really long lived human. Ysmir is indeed a term for Dragonborn, but you can't logically deny that Wulfharth was or became an avatar of Lorkhan. IIRC, some historically sources mention Wulfharth fighting the Alessian Order.

Zurin and Wulfharth can't tell the difference between themselves anymore. That's the most important part of the process of mantling, no one can tell who is who anymore. That's why both of them claim to be the Underking.

Also, Alduin was never built up to be Akatosh in Nordic legend. That's an imperial mistake.

Edit: IIRC, there is Morrowind book that says Orkey is Malacath.


It's the Nords who wouldn't have liked Arkay first. The Aedra change based on mortal views. It's why Auriel can hate humans but Akatosh protects them.

Of course, Bethesda could get rid of all that and tell "LOL Auriel ent Akatosh!1"

The "Five Songs.." are pretty damn literal. Shor's ghost fights Alduin, according to them. They say that Shor himself fought at Red Mountain. They say that the Heart of Lorkhan is the heart of Shor. The Heart of Lorkhan is shown in TES III to be an evil artifact, corrupting the Tribunal and empowering Dagoth Ur. Shor is shown in TES V to be a good force, whose Hall of Valor in Sovngarde is home to heroes who fight against Alduin, who is evil.

In short, a lot of the "Five Songs..." are, no offense to Nord users, complete bulls***

The Heart of Lorkhan is NOT an evil artifact. Not even close. It corrupted no one. Some of the Heart users went insane themselves based on their OWN power craze. Ever heard of the term "power corrupts?"

Lorkhan being at Red Mountain is just another version of the Battle of Red Mountain. Possibly through Wulfharth, rather than a full divine presence.

Sorry, my mistake, I checked and the Battle of Red Mountain was between the Dwemer and Dunmer, no Nords were involved. . Wulfharth, being a big nationalist, probably tried to restore Nord control over Morrowind after his election and purging of Alessians in the 1E 480's. It was there that he died, during an attempted invasion of Morrowind that is not recorded (the Nords do this A LOT). I still think he was just a powerful tongue, maybe Dragonborn, but not an immortal God-King.

I think that, given the proof of both Lorkhan's (the heart) and Shor's existence (the hall of valor), and their drastically different natures, we can hypothesize with relative certainty that they are DIFFERENT BEINGS. Just as Alduin is neither an Aedra (I said he was a demigod of immense power, IN ADDITION to being the first and most powerful dragon) nor Akatosh, Shor and Lorkhan could be distinct spirits, perhaps related to one another (like Alduin and Akatosh). And Auriel probably ISN'T Akatosh, given Akatosh's "I care about everybody" nature and Auriel's "Only Mer matter" nature.

Also, while Alduin is "the world-eater" and Paarthurnax and the Greybeards believe he will play a central role in the end of this world (Mundus) that is not to say that he is powerful enough to do it instantly. The Hero of Cyrodiil was destined to save Tamriel, but he had to jump through a whole lot of hoops to do so. By contrast, the "Five Songs..." say that Alduin can just eat time. Hmmm, funny how he never shows that ability in the main story of TES V. Ohhh wait, he does, except it is a specific Dragon shout that raises Dragons whose souls hadn't been devoured by a dragonborn, and that Alduin never uses a shout that effects an enemy's time adversely.

Five Songs and Arcturian Heresy are two of the most important ingame books and contributions to overall TES lore next to The Monomyth and Varieties of Faith. Five Songs and AH could have been written in a wild, abstract fashion, but they weren't. They were meant to convey information. Furthermore the heresy in Arcturian Heresy comes from the fact that it goes against Imperial propaganda anon accepted history. In real life, no; you would never accept anything historical at face value, but in a literary world it makes sense to.

Show me someone that doesn't accept Five Songs and AH, and I'll show you someone who isn't familiar enough with TES metaphysics because the two sources break many a paradigm. That's why they're important. They lay out a lot of the mechanics for things like mantling and show how mantling changes things in the real world.

And yes, Zurin Arctus was the Underking, but he wasn't the first. Underking is a title, just like Ysmir. They both describe Shor's ghost which, surprise surprise! both Zurin Arctus and Wulfharth were.

All you have to do is accept that the universe of TES is built on the fracturing of egos, allowing for more personalities to form. It's how the universe was created. Echoes of fracturing and pieces of larger entities fighting each other repeat themselves, and one of those is of the being Talos who has three pieces: Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth. Once you get past that fact, it all falls into place, and you don't have to look for roundabout ways to alternatively describe things; ways like these threads. Look at the stickies at the top of the forum's thread list. Ctrl+F "Enantiomorph". It's all there clear as day.

Hmmmm, you may be right. When confronted with such awesome and terrible power as contained in the Heart, it could be that any mortal who tried to harness it would inevitably go mad with power. Out of Dagoth Ur and the tribunal, only Vivec didn't eventually go nuts, and this was only because he gave up his 'divinity.' And since the idea that the heart of Lorkhan is inherently evil comes from a culture that considers slavery of other races okay and Mephala and Boethiah 'Good' daedra (since murder, deceit, treason and playing with mortals lives for your own amusemant are SOOOOOOO moral traits), maybe I am giving the Dunmer view of things to much credit.

Also, I still think Wulfharth was just a mortal. The Heart being at Red Mountain is more than enough to give Lorkhan/Shor a "prescence."