I made this topic first for askin some quick hints on WHAT you guys would add or remove from my Skill Perks.

And second this topic is made for those who seek Assassin perks to understand and debate about possible builds.

in short terms:

What would you ADD or REMOVE in this perk tree?
This is a BASIC assassin archetype. So, feel free to say what YOU THINK would be better or worse.

The focus on this Build is: Dual Wield, Backstab with illusion spells for support (such as invisibility, fear, rage), Archery and weapon improvement (without crafting. Remember: You may create legendary items without the need of that PERK. what counts is your skill level).

Let's make this a useful Thread! =D

Here we are!

http://skyrimcalculator.com/#22046

i like your plan. i however did plan for a more straight-up sneak, bow and arrow and dagger build. i see that you're planning to get invisibility which, to be honest, i'm now thinking about - what is your planned Magicka/Health/Stamina levels? asking this coz i havent really thought about tinkering or adding any points into magicka until i've considered using spells like invisibilty or even runes...

I think it's a good Idea. I'm a one handed guy

Cheers

I like your choices in archery. No need for the criticals there. But I am not going for all the power attack based perks in one-hand. 95% of my damage done with the bow. Sneak attacks with a bow just make me feel like a sniper.
Plus I use swords > dagger for better damage and 1-hand enchantments. But then I am a crafter and boost alchemy, smithing and enchanting. Lvl 45 atm.
I do like your choices for illusion. Will be a good build.

Muffled Movement/Light Feet/Silent Roll are necessary. Once you hit 65 Sneak and up, you're very, very difficult to find, regardless of perks. Unhindered is a MASSIVE perk - "Light Armor weighs nothing and doesn't slow you down when worn". Total freedom of movement, and gives you 20+ cap with the lost weight. You could delve into the Alchemy tree - Alchemist/Physician/Poisoner gives you a 25% bonus to your poisons, which could come in very handy as an assassin - especially against enemy bosses. Pickpocket will also help you - once you've got Light Fingers/Night Thief, you're able to expand whichever way suits you most - Poisoned allows you to pickpocket poison onto enemies undetected, letting you damage before moving in for the kill. Extra Pockets gives you +100 carry cap - combined with the Steed Stone, this is a big bonus.

I am not sure what you are getting from your investment in illusion you either do not already have from sneak or cannot replace with potions. Invisibility potions are easy enough to find. Even the 15 second version is enough to get you out of most scraqes. The Paralyze perks or poisons are much better cc than the level limited illusion spells Calm or Hysteria. You have to take point away from either health or stamina to put into magika to cast them. Other options where those points could be spent:

One-handed
Bladesman 3/3, 20% crit chance that does not require available stamina to do a power attack.
Paralyzing Strike 1/1, 25% chance to paralyze on backward power attack. Seems like a nice opening move.

Light Armor:
The top three perks look good if you wan to up stamina regen and defense. I'd would get the 50% stamina regen so you can execute power attacks more frequently. You will have some long fights.

Archery
Quick shot will up DPS while the other will mean more long range shots before the enemy can close into melee range.

Stealth
Why only 1/5? Why not 5/5? The top two perks seem to offer better movement speed and a get out of jail card. I have not used this tree so I am not sure if they are weak or not.

If you want to mix in some magic I'd go Alteration to get the defense spells and magic resits plus my favorite crowd control spells Paralyze and Mass Paralyze.

Something like

Novice (1/1)
Apprentice (1/1)
Adept (1/1)
Expert (1/1)
Magic resistance (2/3): With gear and Agent of Mara this should be plenty
Master or dual cast.

http://skyrimcalculator.com/#22146

This Build will give you access to the best weapons and enchants ingame, with maxed out sneak and maximum damage from power attacks. Point of going the "heavy armor" side of the weapons is daedric being the best ingame and you will need the perk in order to improve them (up to 171 per dagger w/o "Ancient Knowledge" iirc.)

Reason for Heavy Armor points are just for the weightless armor, since it will make any type of "Muffle" etc. obsolete.

Sneak obviously maxed out. All Points mandatory. Shadow Warrior is insanely strong since it will allow you Backstabs "infight" (while technically you'll be out of combat just long enough to do a backstab).

Rest is up to you. Archery is a very nice addition to an Assassin while Illusion offers some fun elements and with "calm" even some game-changing elements, since calmed opponents will sometimes have their "friendly" dialogue options, despite having turned hostile before.

i have a question regarding invisibility: if you use potions of invisibilty, does it make a sound like casting the invisibility spell? i'm sorry, the question might come off and sound a little "stupid" but i just wanted some confirmation if anybody knows. XP

Just wanted to notify you that you CAN NOT create legendary weapons without the perk, unless you use the alchemy-enchanting-smithing combo.

But your build is great anyways, it's almost the same as I use with my assassin

There's no need for legendary weapons when you got the 15x backstab perk, even without the DB-gloves.

It does not make any sound. I've tested it serveral times.

About the guy who said you can't create legendary weapons without the perk... I just tested raising the smithing level and it worked. And there's another thing: The Ancient Dark Brotherhood armor only goes up to Flawless. When I raised the B.S. the Epic option became available. Without any perk but arcane smithing.

Someone said about what I want to get with illusion. That's the deal:

Assassins NEEDs distraction methods. REALLY NEEDs. For a modern assassin there are "many serveral" ways to distract your victims, but in Elder Scrolls you can do a few things like throwing an arrow to the wall. With illusion you CAN cast RAGE wich makes your opponent go nut and attack anything on it's front. It's a perfect distraction if you need a tatical postion in a close quarter combat, for instance.

Let me explain it even deeper:

You get 5 foes in a room. You CAN'T sneak all the 5 unless they are in line, all backwards to you. That's kinda hard to happen, so... If you cast RAGE in one of them (it's a cheap spell) you'll get one foe distracting the others. It's the time for you to act.

Someone said about my stamina vs Hp vs Mana (magicka)

It goes this way:

HP at lvl 49: 310
Stamina at Lvl 49: 300
Magicka: Not sure but I think it's around the 170

That goes sweet. If you have enought perks to create mana drain enchantments, that'll go even better.

Hey there Heizer,

Like the initial plan, would loose critical charge.

I would also call the eagle-eye/slow time bow thing a maybe. But correct in the 5/5, that is the main one.

See your illusion is setup for invis casts, eerily similar

PC users might not want to dual-wield

Finally- I love wind walker, it lets you keep a smaller stamina pool, so more health/magica. AND if you take sneak perk "silence" you can run around dungeons at full sprint while invisible and in muffle boots, and just drop into sneak right before the kill- now that is fast (I would take silence)

The build you posted matches me about 80 percent

@ Kah-boom : having invisibility as a spell you can access and spam at any time is totally different from using a potion. You will never run out of ingredients/potions, and can use it without debating the merits ("is this really worth my potion?") , also you do not have to cheese-pause the game to bring up a menu.

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with wind walker I can keep the stamina at 180 at level 55. Buffs to magica (340) health (310), never loose a beat on multiple invisible hits, and the large mana pool allows you to engage multiple enemies in one room without stopping.
Addendum: quickkey-swapping weapons can reactivate a sneak attack on later enemies that saw you just go invisible

But- you TOTALLY CAN. Just check the shops for some fortify smith items (all vendors randomly sell them) and get a blacksmith elixur/philfur/potion whatever, and yes everything can be legendary without its material perk.

A valid build, but lets all remember that "maxed out" sneak attacks are fluff. When you are using DB gloves and hitting 30X damage, any weapon dealing 50 damage will one shot anything in game. I would ask the character of this build to make my weapons, not to do the missions.

HAVE to really disagree with the heavy armor. - really -really strongly. Unless you go get the steed stone immediately you will be a clutz of a sneak compared to your light armor contemporaries, and until 70 skill? that is much much later in the career. Also muffle from the sneak skill is not the same as muffle spell/boots, the sneak one is half magnitude.

I'm not a big fan of perking mutually exclusive methods of combat. For instance, you're not likely to snipe and backstab against the same enemy. I would pick one or the other.

If you go full Archery, you can still backstab effectively with daggers and minimal perk investment in One Handed. If you go full One-Handed, I'd suggest using Swords and enchanting your armor with Fortify One-Handed enchants. You'll do less Sneak damage, but you'll do far better if and when you're spotted and end up toe-to-toe.

Dump Critical Charge in One Handed. That's an opener for DW Warriors; useless for Assassins who will be sneaking in for a backstab.

The Light and Heavy Armor perk trees are pretty weak, so you're generally best served by putting only enough points in to become armor capped, or to avoid it entirely. If durability is important to you, consider taking Elven Smithing; 2 points in Smithing, 8 in Enchanting, and 3 in Light Armor can get you a mitigation-capped set of armor with custom enchants on it. Otherwise, I'd stay away from the Light Armor tree entirely. Durability is always an issue for assassins, because unless you're purposefully training/ power leveling your Light Armor Skill, it will tend to be underleveled since you don't go toe to toe with enemies often. Either craft your way to maximum durability or make peace with being a glass cannon.

Smart move only taking 1/5 in Stealth. Points 2-5 give very little bang or the buck, and you won't need them at higher levels. Definitely fill out the Sneak tree. Shadow Warrior is incredible, and if you're set on using daggers, it will allow you continually sneak attack enemies who are in your face.

Illusion magic is incredibly powerful, but I'm not a big fan of it. Casting Rage on a group of enemies from afar is much too passive for my liking, and Invisibility isn't necessary once your Sneak is high enough. If you want it as an escape mechanism, you can always get it through pots.

Consider putting some points in Pickpocketing. Disarming or poisoning an enemy before you backstab can be very useful, and adds another entertaining dimension to sneaking. Extra Pockets is a very useful perk in its own right.

Throw Voice and a little archery skill are all you need - and well not really "need" - just helps to pretty much not take any hit from any opponent even if you could take a couple. In the worst case. Basically any opponent will go down in one hit, even on master. Sufficient Sneak skill plus enchantments are the key to get close to enemies without being noticed. I didn't even find myself in a situation where I really "needed" to use archery other than dragon fights. Illusion is fun though, I have to admit that.

- Arcane blacksmith, complete waste of a perk. Go Dedric Smithing or don't go into that tree at all. Your bow will svck without smithing though.
- You won't need that armor perks at all assuming you're combining sneak and illusion. Seriously.
- If you take Enchanting instead of the above, you will be able to cast Illusion for free and won't need anything except the right path there.
- Unfinished archery tree without faster draw, faster walk, no stagger and no paralyze is a huge gimp. This is one of those trees where you either go all in or wish you didn't go there at all.
- Poisons would serve you better than dual-wield. Make up your mind, bow or two swords, basically, having both makes you gimp. An arrow that can svck out all the mana out of a mage is more useful than backup of two swords. And two poisoned swords are better than a bow on your back.
- If you go up to Silent Roll, you can as well get Shadow Warrior, you can hide from and backstab dudes right in front of you with it. Doesn't get more assassin-ish than that.
- I'd take Master of the Mind and Dual Casting. Illusion gets very powerful with those and you'll have all of fun making enemies slaughter each other while you watch them from the shadows.
- If you don't want to pick between Dual Wield and Bow, resign from Illusion and use Shadow Warrior as your Invisibility.
- A good bowman can appreciate some Alteration sometimes, so you might look at Paralyze as your emergency Crowd Control and Detect Life to help you sneak the right direction to help your build after you have Silent Casting. Transmute, Armor bonuses and all the light spells come useful too.

Try this: http://skyrimcalculator.com/#22381 (can replace bow with dual-wield, depending on your preference between the two)

Having used sneak alone, and later sneak and invisibility combined, It is obvious that sneak does not make invisibility obsolete, unnecessary or just an addon. It can break combat with no failure instantly, and there is no need to retreat- sneak cannot do that on its own.

Enemies detect by
Sight-
Sound-
Touch-

Sound- gets taken care of by muffle/sneak skill
Sight- that is nullified by invisibility, sneak cannot do it as quickly, as perfectly- or nearly as elegantly.

Testing has indicated that the Muffled Movement perk, the Muffled boot enchant, and the Muffle spell all provide the exact same effect, despite descriptions that imply differences in "magnitude". None of them stack either.

For all intents and purposes, the Muffled Movement perk simply frees up a boot enchant slot for you.

link?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Muffle_(effect). That contradicts some earlier testing that was posted here, but UESP's current explanation makes more sense.

Looks like the Muffle spell is the most powerful of three, with a magnitude of 1; that presumably makes you 100% silent for the duration of the spell. The perk and the boot enchant stack to provide 100% silence as well.

Lets correct this one line at a time.
-Arcane blacksmith- worthless? wrong. Any item found in game can be improved with it. Daedric items- are obtainable in the loot system, at the mages guild, and are unessesary considering the damage output in the original attack 12x / 30x hits make a elegant steel dagger kill anything (without spending 4 perks). Bows will svck without smithing? that is why you can just take arcane blacksmith and improve the nightengale bow, or any ebony bow. Silly comment.
- Armor perks, that is up to the user. Some people play master/hate dying ever. YMMV
-Enchant all our armors with illusion reducers to cast invisibility for free? This assumes we are using custom armor (smithing perks) and heavy enchanting perks. I wish this wasn't a single player game so I could hire these characters to make items for me.
-5/5 bow damage and a legendary ebony bow kills about everything except dragons in 1-2 shots. What is the need for stagger and a 15 percent paralyze? Have you tried/thought about this build before posting?
Bow or sword? If you only drop damage perks into the bow you can use both bow/sword easily- I don't know about you or whiskey above- but some of skyrim's dungeons/overland maps have huge ranges, and some are close quarters- adaptability.
Don't need master of the mind if you are using the illusion tree for silent casts/invisible - Thought that would be obvious from looking at the build.
Shadow warrior is not invisibility- Silly comments like these are a sure sign of not having tried using invisibility the way the OP build intends.
Paralyze? now that is what poison is for.

Sorry if this sounded harsh, the post above is just full of faulty info.

You're talking Potions then, since the spell is not instantly. Can't say a lot about that, since I never used potions other than healing potions. And invisibility does not work against a lot of bosses once in combat iirc. Well - I never found myself in situations where I could not sneak up to a non boss opponent (other that those initializing dialogues with you regardless of visibility). Since none of those none-bosses survives a Backstab I never really felt the need to disengage from combat. At worst I would use the shadow warrior perk to get an additional Backstab infight.

cool, empirical testing was telling me the same, which is why I kept the boots on.

With weightless armor you would need neither of those, or am I missing something?

Correct. The Steed Stone, Conditioning, and Unhindered make the Muffled effect completely unnecessary.

If you're wearing an Elven set which weighs only 7 lbs total, you don't need it either; the Sneak penalty from wearing 7 lbs. of armor is negligble.