This is required to be explained in order for people reading this, to understand the point and the information I need for the wiki.

Ok first off let me explain a PERSONAL OPINION AND POINT OF VIEW REGARDING WHAT PEOPLE ARE CALLING BUGS/GLITCHES when ANYTHING is written into the wiki and other such places INCORRECTLY this gets people and players to incorrectly get a knowledge about something and then spreading around the net false pieces of information, that in turn causes people to just think something is just because it's all over the place and so before to long everyone is calling a bog/glitch something it's not and if you try to explain to people specific things they reply with Well if it's not then why is everyone calling it that then" Or things like "It's even in the Wiki"

My point is that when people not have something work properly in a game they are way too quick to say things like "Oh I cannot get this out of my inventory IT MUST BE BUGGED' OR "This NPC didn't advance in the quest" It's bugged then on the wiki you read things like KNOWN BUGS and you read all this information under a section called KNOWN BUGS.

One thing I've have constantly noticed about 99.9% of players that play Skyrim is that they clearly have absolutely no concept/understanding about how the game is programmed, and or have any understanding how the games programming even works....And this is where the problem comes into play for people labeling something a BUG/glitch that isn't even a bug/glitch. It's just players not understanding the quest system and or how the quest system is put together.

Skyrim is not programmed in the same manor other games these people play the way they THINK it is, so when something goes wrong they are quick to automatically say the game is bugged/glitched, instead of taking the time to fully understand that what they themselves did in the game totally 100% changes what happens in events further along in the game even if it's not related to the current or specific quest line and events they are having a problem with. And this in turn proves, exactly what I just said about people who don't understand how this quest system works because they say things like "You are supposed to be able to do every quest you get in the game no matter what".

Actually NO you are not supposed to be able to do every quest no matter what, and that is where people are not understanding that 3/4 of the things people are saying is bugged actually IS NOT BUGGED it's players not understanding that this game is so intricately programmed that it plays 100% completely different than what people have always been used to.

The above situation is exactly why I said that 99.9% of the Skyrim players have absolutely no clue how the quest system in this game works never mind how it was programmed they take how they think the game is and start applying it to Skyrim and trying to force an older programming system into something current without understanding you cannot and this is exactly what causes people's confusion.

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Using the "LOUD AND CLEAR" QUEST from the thieves guild, the Fetch quests from the Bards college (Flute, Lute, Drum), and the MISTWATCH QUEST (Help CHRISTER locate his kidnapped wife FJOLA) as an example, I am going to lay out the difference between an actual BUG and what people are thinking is a bug just because they don't understand the quest system or how it works.

The fetch quest in the Bards college has you get three items A Flute, A Lute, and A Drum. Now upon finishing those 3 quests, you turn them in and even though you get a message on the screen saying (Said item has been removed) if you look they are still in your inventory. Every single person has this happen and the only way to remove those items is through a console command...

This particular bards quest IS IN FACT A BUG because it happens to EVERYONE not some people here and there. Because quest items when turned in should be being removed..

So yes this is an actual bug/glitch.

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NOW I'll go into the LOUD AND CLEAR quest in the Thieves guild:

At the point you turn in this quest, you need to go talk to BRYNJOLF which in turn gives you DAMPENED SPIRITS which explains that you need to go talk to MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR. Now people are reporting that after turning in the LOUD AND CLEAR segment to BRYNJOLF the DAMPENED SPIRITS quest never triggers. So people are quick to say it's a bug...However now lets look at what people do not seem to understand...DESPITE WHAT PEOPLE THINK that you should be able to turn this quest in when you do it and that it is supposed to be able to be turned in no matter what and at any time is where the people thinking that PROVES that those people really do not understand how the quest system in this game works and here are 2 scenarios PROVING this:

So far not one person as well as the WIKI have mentioned WHEN they are trying to turn in LOUD AND CLEAR. Which in fact has everything to do with whether or not you can turn it in.
Doing the CIVIL WAR QUEST LINE BEFORE DOING THE THIEVES GUILD QUEST LOUD AND CLEAR, AND OR BURNING MORE THAN 3 BEEHIVES actually DOES IN FACT change how the game is played and whether or not you can continue..

SCENARIO 1:
Upon entering the thieves guild you are SPECIFICALLY TOLD ONLY DO EXACTLY WHAT WE TELL YOU OR YOU WON'T GET A CUT..NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS. (not exactly in that sentence but that is what you're told to do in a nutshell. Anyway if you burn more than 3 beehives AFTER YOU WERE EXPLICITLY GIVEN AN ORDER TO ONLY DESTROY 3 then guess what you did exactly what you were told not to do, pissed off BRYNJOLF, and then you think you should be able to get rewarded in the game. No just like real life you suffer the consequences of not doing what you're told and getting consequences for your actions..So in this case not getting any further quests so that quest in that aspect is doing exactly what it's programmed to do..You screwed up now deal with it...

In scenario 1 the game is not bugged...that is the player being stupid then trying to say they should be able to continue despite not following directions so no any player saying THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO FINISH THE QUEST NO MATTER WHAT is wrong..So in this scenario NO YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT be able to continue the thieves guild quests. Players have no business calling the game bugged just because they didn't follow directions...that is the players fault for not understanding that what the game says it means, and then still thinking they can proceed...this is ONLY ONE example of people not understanding how the game is programmed or how the quest system works..


SCENARIO 2:
Doing the Thieves Guild Quests BEFORE doing the Civil War Quest and doing them after the Civil War quest line WILL HAVE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT OUTCOMES IN SPECIFIC CASES WITH SPECIFIC QUESTS THAT INVOLVE SPECIFIC NPC'S. If anyone cared and bothered to pay any attention that after completing the CIVIL WAR QUEST LINE just about changes everything around you, the guards, people, the JARLS, THIS CHANGES ALSO INCLUDES QUESTS.....NPC's wind up have other concerns and what was once a top of the list to do problem they now couldn't be bothered with..because the civil war turns everything upside down.

So when you do the LOUD AND CLEAR quest absolutely 100% in fact have an actual impact of whether or not you can turn it in..In a nutshell this is exactly what happens:
THE CIVIL WAR QUEST turns plain old MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR into JARL MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR. DAMPENED SPIRITS has you You are told to go talk to MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR and you cannot because you have changed who she is by the Civil War.

IN SCENARIO 2, the quest is doing exactly what it's programmed to do, if you do not turn in LOUD IN CLEAR before everything changes then you cannot do it because you changed what happens in the game by specific events which again people getting stuck with this are trying to say that regardless for what is going on and what you change you are still supposed to be able to advance in a quest no matter what..and again that is 100% wrong..So in this scenario NO YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT be able to continue the thieves guild quests because you CHANGED WHAT HAPPENED.

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The last example I'm going to use shows the exact situation for the above explanations in a very dumbed down manor:

There is a misc quest in MISTWATCH you get from a man named CHRISTER to Save his Wife FJOLA and people report THE QUEST BEING BUGGED due to not being able to continue the quest due to various reasons or get the ring out of your inventory. Now I have read everything people are calling a bug in this quest and I can tell just by reading what is being said there is no bug it's again people not understanding this quest system. Here is what people are claiming is a bug, if either Christer AND OR FJOLA gets killed you cannot turn the quest in. Chirster can get killed by the bandits that barge into the room because he runs out and engages in the fight. FJOLA gets killed if you kill her because she attacks you. Any NPC that gets killed, that is required to be alive to turn in a quest, IS NOT A BUG, that is the NPC getting killed. It happened so deal with it. But don't go blaming the game about a quest you cannot complete because the NPC you need to turn it into got killed...


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NOW TO TIE THIS WHOLE THING TOGETHER:

All 3 situations above all have the same exact thing in common...in all 3 cases the PLAYER THEMSELVES HAS CHANGED THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE GAME, but are somehow in the mindset that those event changes in the game do not matter or aren't supposed to matter because they aren't aware that Skyrim is programmed so intricately that yes the events absolutely do have a major impact on what gets done, when you do it or whether or not you can do it.

I'll sum this up in a very simple fashion
NOT BEING ABLE to turn a quest into any dead NPC that needs to be alive to turn in a quest is the exact same thing as NOT BEING ABLE TO TRIGGER A QUEST to an NPC that needs to be in a specific place to turn it in...In a lot of cases in Skyrim you absolutely WILL change an NPC's outcome of what you may or may not be able to do because you're altering the events in what happens.

HERE IS A LIFE SITUATION THAT YOU CAN APPLY TO THOSE 3 SITUATIONS ABOVE:
Lets say a pawn broker asks you to go retrieve a piano for him, and if you do he will make you an employee AND HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS ALLOWED TO DO IT AND THAT UPON RECEIVING THE PIANO IT'S YOURS PERMANENTLY AND YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GET RID OF THE PIANO UNDER ANY CONDITIONS FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES and the employee piano contract will always supersede any loop hole you try to use to get rid of the piano it's yours for life. SO NOW YOU HAVE WRITTEN INTO A CONTRACT A SPECIFIC SET UP SO no matter what, the contract has to get followed in order for you to become an employee.

Now after you sign the contract and ACCEPT THE TERMS, you go off to get the piano, and In the event of doing so you trigger an event that gets the Pawn Broker you're doing the errand for causes him to accidentally get killed...Guess what even if you get the piano. The issue here is that you cannot EVER become an employee of that store because YOU DID SOMETHING THAT GOT HIM KILLED AND CHANGED THE OUTCOME.

So are you going to go around saying life is bugged because I cannot turn BECOME AN EMPLOYEE BECAUSE THE GUY I MADE THE DEAL WITH CAN NO LONGER DO IT AND REGARDLESS IF HE IS DEAD OR NOT, I STILL SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE MADE AN EMPLOYEE BECAUSE THAT WAS THE DEAL THAT COULD ONLY BE FULFILLED BY THAT SHOP OWNER BECAUSE AFTER ALL IT SHOULDN'T MATTER. AND I SHOULD STILL BE ABLE TO GET RID OF THE PIANO (A piano you singed a contract to be stuck with permanently.)

Just like the shop owner, MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR is no longer Who shes ONCE WAS because the CIVIL war changes her priories all because of where she is. Same exact thing with CHRISTER and his wife, If one or both wind up dead it changes what happens and the outcome of what you can or cannot do.So why are people seriously trying to say that even though events have been changed in the game that altar everything that they are still entitled to be able to do what happened BEFORE the events got changed like it didn't happen. When events get changed in the game NO PLAYERS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING BECAUSE YOUR ACTIONS CARRY CONSEQUENCE AND CHANGE. So yes you should be stuck with a quest of this nature you cannot get out of your journal because that is exactly what happens when you change things in Skyrim you get stuck because of your actions and what you change.

just like if the Jarl that gave you a quest is no longer there...You cannot turn in the quest and now you cannot remove teh entry from your journal. That isn't bugged, what that actually means is that means you should have paid attention and turned in the quest when you were supposed to if you dont know when that is oh well deal with it Skyrim is set up to do what no game has done before and that is make you deal with the consequences of your actions and changes whether good or bad...Players again in this instance think that who you get the quest from and when you get it is not relevant because that is what they are used to, when in fact it is 100% relevant who you get teh quest from, where you get it, and when you decide to turn it in.. If you wait to long then of well and not knowing when to turn it in is exactly the point.

people need to separate and understand that there is a difference bewteen a bug and changes in a script that make you deal with a consequence

A bug means it cannot be done NO MATTER WHAT regardless of anything that happens...

Changes in a script because of an NPC Dying so now the quest is not doable isn't bugged because the events are what changed the outcome and not just because it cannot be done.

As I said a simple way to explain this is an NPC that you have to turn a quest into that is either dead or lost somewhere..If you you have a quest by that NPC and that NPC is either Dead or cannot be found then NO IT IS NOT BUGGED JUST
The quests you cannot do in the above examples happen because of a specificchange and have reason for happening.

Players are not aware that the programming in SKYRIM is the first time a game has ever used a system that FORCES YOU to keep a quest you WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FINISH IF NOTHING CHANGED ANYTHING.to have players understand that this is one aspect of the games programming no one has ever seen

People like to say no game ever does this and bethesda wouldn't do this and how are you supposed to know this would happen without taking into account that is exactly the point...you don't know what is going to happen until later on..Just like in real life you cannot go back and undo a mistake or call something in life bugged just because you disagree with it..And as I said before people do not understand how this game was programmed and that if you canot do something you get stuck with it.

THERE IS MAJOR DIFFERENCE IN DOING SOMETHING IN THE GAME TO CAUSE A CHANGE IN A SITUATION AND NOT BEING ABLE TO DO SOMETHING FOR NO REASON AT ALL. And people should learn the difference.

Bump

Holy [censored] Caps lock is cruise control for cool.

Also, just because some people got the correct result whilst others (being in the majority or not) didn't, doesn't automatically mean it's a bug. I personally highly doubt that doing the civil war before the theives guild stops you from finishing it, but hey, I could be wrong.

Take a gander at the unofficial buglist in the PC tech forum.
Bugs are bugs are bugs.

Let me comment on some things:
Your logic is the logic of a bad game designer. Deliberately TRYING TO CUT OFF gamers from a quest is understandable. Deliberately TRYING TO PISS OFF gamers by not failing the quest and still have them in the journal is a very bad design.

Why? Because Jarl or no Jarl. She's still Maven Black-Briar. No, she's not Jarl Maven Black-Berry. She's still the very same person who were waiting for you.

If she suddenly forgot about you just because of a sloppy design (didn't check whether she'd forgot about you or not), then is it a bad design that should never be defended to death. The designers allowed you to do Civil War quest with Loud and Clear still going. if you are not supposed to be able to advance (perhaps Jarl Maven Black-Berry has found another Thieves Guild, perhaps from Cyrodiil) then the quest SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY FAIL, not being left there mocking you.

Your example of a pawn broker dying can only apply to the third scenario

The equivalent for 2nd scenario is this:

Your friend owed you a huge amount of money
Suddenly, since you killed the last president, the day after that he's the President of United States of America
Now, not only you can't ask for your money back, your mouth is suddenly gagged by the gods whenever you want to talk about it
And your friend suddenly lost his memory of ever owing anything to you. He'll still come over and have dinner with you. Your wife will never talk about the money again, and only you are left in despair

Such is the cruelty of bad design

A bug/glitch is when unforseen programming errors cause undesired effects. and as i said in your previous thread, you are still an idiot.
and if you were a programmer id be suprised if anything you worked on ever got fixed.

Wall of text = Didn't read.

Yea, it should fail you if not a glitch imo...

Sorry, that totally does not seem like the intent of the game. IF skyrim were a "you screwed up, no more quest for you" game, then there would be no essential NPCs. I would be able to kill Ulfric stormcloak at the start, and "screw up" my civil war questline.
You seem to like the "players didnt follow directions, thus game screwed up, its their fault" point, well i tried killing all the jarls as well as ancano in the college of winterhold time and again, but noooo they didnt die.
I tried to screw the game up, but the essential NPCs prevented that. So the "didnt follow instructions, game screws up" point is extremely unconvincing.

Still, nice use of caps in certain areas to accentuate words, i like that

I only consider parts of the game glitchy if I experience something first hand. Keep in mind that they update the game frequently making most bugs/glitches obsolete.

You could technically say the same thing about all glitches. Blood on the Ice screws up if you do something out of order, or approach the quest in a way that the game isn't programed to understand, even though the developers intended it to. I consider that quest to have major bugs that prevent me from normally completing said quest.

No offense, but I don't understand why you would post in the first place if you didn't even read it.

If that's al you got out of everything written above then you have not learned anything and you have 100% missed the point.

3/4 of the Skyrim players have done something in their game that cause the quest lines to break because they did something in the game that prevents the quest from being done...When they have that happen they cry BUG/Gitch when instead they should be accpeting responsibility for their own ingame actions instead of trying to find a majority rules to take sympathy with them.

If a player kills or any NPC gets killed that they need to turn a quest into, that is no ones fault BUT THE PLAYERS so yes they should absolutely be foced to get stuck with something they cannot remove. Next time you will know better and pay more attention.

I am so glad that you along with every other tool who seriously somehow think that a player should be allowed to screw up and still not have any consequences are having this happen. You all should be stuck with things you cause yourself because you deserve it. Usinga console command to remove a quest you screwed up on and can no onger do because you turned it in at the wrong time or because the NPC is dead IS CHEATING.

try looking at your own playstyle and stop causing your own problems then having the audacity to say I HAVE THE QUEST AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT REGARDLESS and when you cannot you cal it a bug/glitched.

As I said 3/4 of the things in Skyrim people are caiming is a bug really aren't it's just players not liking how the game is programmed and screwing it up themselves

Ya, like asking your commander to attend a peace negotiation while being an Unblooded eh?

Like I said. If you're not supposed to advance, then make it goddang FAILED, not sit there in the journal. If it's still right there in the journal, but can't be completed, then it's a bug. And no, it's not player's fault.

I glazed over the OP like a Chinese newspaper. After all, its from the same dude who just got flamed for arguing that modifying isn't the same as editing. I'm not even going to bother with this thread.

To scenario 1:

I burned more than 3 beehives. So I don't get a cut. That is the consequence. After that I still could speak to Maven and go on with the questline. Obviously a bug. You are a (very dedicated) troll, sir.

Spoilers.

The piano thing was pretty stupid. Noone can make you keep a piano permenantly... Only you make your own choices. A contract is just a sheet of paper.

I'd like to thank the OP for this wonderful thread... good idea, good execution... just real quality posting here. Don't mind all the people that are trying to flame you... they don't know what they're saying, because they are all robots who cannot think for themselves and are probably not even real robots -- they're like AI constructs in that movie Matrix: Reloaded, you know... just pieces of code, programs, floating around in a big computer simulation. They think they're alive, but they're really just computer programs. Plus, I really like turtles... they're like the coolest animals ever.

-Loth

u mad bro?

Holy cow man... tl;dr + all caps sections + incoherent angry rambling about how bugs aren't bugs.

EDIT, btw...


I'm in IT. I manage about 400 Linux machines running oracle, weblogic (java), tomcat, and other nifty software. I work with developers and end users on a daily basis.

A bug is generally a condition which is caused by a specific set of events or user inputs which the developers did not account for. One can pretend like they are intentional, but generally a bug is detrimental to the user experience. Things that happen in unclear, illogical ways are generally regarded as bugs OR poor design.

Take your pick between the two, but the net effect is the same - developer or design oversight resulting in a sub-optimal user experience.

I'm sure many of these things will be fixed either by Bethesda or by the community (as they were in Oblivion)

--Randall

Except that if that was such a contract yes you would be legally stuck with not being able to get rid of it because the only way to stop it has died. Obviously no one would ever have that happen however the example is exactly the side of this people repying decide to keep ignoring because they either do not ike or they disagree with the way the game is programmed.


YES IT SHOULD SIT IN YOUR JOURNAL because YOU DID NOT FAIL IT you did something totally on your own to cause that to happen so now you are stuck with it and you do not like it but your ikes and dislikes have nothing to do with that a player screwes this up so therefor Yes it should stay in your journal as a reminder of your screw up, just to piss you off.

I understand that you don't like it, that is your OPINION about what should be done...however You need to STOP FORCING your opinion about what you do not like into this and then trying to say you want it to work a specific way or should work to adjust to your play style. Don't get all pissy because you do not like how something gives you a perfect consequence you disagree with so you have to resort to saying it's bugged/glitched.

It's very simple The bottom line is that if people do not want quests sitting in their journal then don't do things in the game that will cause it to happen.

It's becoming rapidly obvious that you know very little about a broad array of subjects (such as the definition of the words "modify" and "edit"), and the bugs and glitches people are experiencing in Skyrim is clearly one of them.

It seems like you are doing the forcing here missy.

I swore to myself I would not respond to his post...but yeah, that is exactly how I feel about it .
Also, thanks Loth, I laughed out loud at work.

Anyone else reminded of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Paranoia at the moment? Just saying.

My true opinion on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4VbOHvaPRc

You are welcome, kind sir.
-Loth

PS When a bug is not a bug, and a mod is not a mod... I shudder to think what the next thread might be about. I, for one, am looking forward to being illuminated -- keep up the good work!