STEAM is awesome but I'm running FONV without it just fine. o_O

It does inconvenience customers. However, that is not the fault of the developer. They need to protect their rights. If they don't, then we won't get anymore games because they will go out of business. Blame the pirates who caused DRM to be a necessity, not the developers for reacting to the pirates.

I can't argue with you when you refuse to recollect the events of the past accurately.

That you can even talk about the original release of Daggerfall in that way makes your entire argument utterly suspect.

Here's a little tidbit from the wiki on Daggerfall, along with some Dev quotes:

"Daggerfall was released on August 31, 1996,[10] within the game's intended release window.[11] Similar to Arena, the original release suffered from buggy code. Although Daggerfall's code was, in contrast to Arena's, patchable,[9] the yearning to avoid, in LeFay's words, "all the stupid patches we had for Daggerfall" led to a more cautious release schedule in the future.[12]"

I remember all too well having to download a massive patch overnight on my 56k dialup to make Daggerfall even playable. I'm going to have to venture a guess that you bought the game far enough after release that the storebought copies already had that massive patch applied.

Civ IV's release was nearly as bad. The memory leak was extremely well documented by the gaming community and absolutely crippled late-game play, which for many is the point in the game where it starts to get interesting.


You want to make this argument so badly that you'll amend any facts that require amending in order to make it. I can't fault anyone for having a poor memory; mine is fading daily. But if you don't have a good recollection of past events, making an argument that draws heavily upon recollection is a bad idea.

I really dont understand the Steam hate. Ever since Digital download gaming really started catching on I havent purchased a disc copy of a game. Unforunately for Steam haters I think a day is coming where all PC games are going to be DD. Look at the ever shrinking PC game sections at stores. Its not because PC gaming is dying its because more and more people are just going digital for PC games.

Back to the topic, What is the big complaint with steam? It is by far superior to that "you can only install a game 3 times" crap that was going on then you gotta jump through hoops to play the game.

I got NV on steam downloaded updated boom in the game and I dont need a disc to play it. I just dont see what all the negative fuss is about.

I started out disliking anything like Steam, the mere fact a paying customer treated like a criminal, but i get it.
But it gets tiresome the way some folk blame it all on piracy as though the gaming companies are the good guys, it's a very grey area, you have piracy on one side and greed on the other, and in between is us the consumer taking the flak, there is blame on both sides, I've began to notice for example that attention to quality control is starting to lack, this is because the publishers push to get the games to market reducing the time needed for quality control, of course we are as much to blame because we want the game 5 minutes ago then we complain about the bugs, there is no black & white and you cannot have it both ways.

Those complaining about Steam causing problems, I suggest you look closer at your system, since having Steam it's caused me one problem, a popup caused a game to crash, not had any problems since, I only have one thing against digital distribution, pc games are being pulled off the shelves in gaming shops, I still prefer a hard copy, I'm really glad I was able to get FO:NV collectors edition.

I fail to see how greed comes into play as far as Steam/DRM is concerned? Using steam Costs the publisher money. They are making LESS because of steam. So tell me how is greed involved?

No you don't.

Not since month 2 of release. 2K listened to our concerns and released an install revoke routine within a few weeks. Grab it http://support.take2games.com/help/take2_games/q532


Two separate issues. Actually, this deserves a clarification:

STEAM is a distro service. DRM is a software product added to another product on games, on BluRays, on many Sony music CDs and movie DVDs, etc (Those of y'all interested in really intrusive DRM schemes should Google Sony. It's . . . instructive.)

STEAM IS NOT DRM - but it behaves like DRM because of its specific implementation. It is possible, indeed frequent, to have a publisher's DRM *on top* of Steam. Anyone buying X3: TERRAN CONFLICT on Steam must also install Tages. (Google that one up as well. Fun for the whole family!)


It's no doubt lucrative for Valve. It's also lucrative for everyone in the supply chain - small devs can upload and pay Steam royalties that are pennies on the dollars they would pay EA or Vivendi. They get less exposure (no boxes on the WalMart shelf) but keep 6 to 7 times the revenues.

You can set somewhere in settings automatic pathing. If set off, you can tell Impulse where to install.


No! You stop your whining! You were not honest enough even to read title of the post. No one here is dictating anything to anybody except you. We are complaining to which we have full right as customers. If you don't like our complains, don't post here. And what ever you think about our opinions of DRM is not interesting us as you were clearly not interested in those opinions in the first place else you would not write something so stupid.


Its pretty simple. Nobody is against digital download. We don't like Steam digital download -its that simple. What is bad about Steam is that it force you to use their service even if you don't want those services. Its like example another one made few posts ago here: Imagine you buy TV in the shop and shop technicians came to your house and install TV. But then they will not leave! They will stay in your house as long as you use TV ...and "provide services". You would not be allowed to watch or move your TV without them. Now what a future of TV industry, isnt it? Sort of like from Orwells book.
Steam is exactly like that shop and its technicians. If it would be just e-shop where you can buy your digital download, nobody would care. You would pay, download your product, install and play. However that is not what you get from Steam. No, they will install your product and you can use that product only while using their service. You also can not update your product with patches or addons. Steam will do it for you. They just made you totally dependant on their service if you want to use your own product. That is "evil" behind Steam, see? Its not about if Steam is good or bad service. Its way they force you to use that service. You like that service but not all people do.

Also what if Steam goes off? Or what if they just stop providing their service in quality you request? And do not tell me Steam can not go bankrupt because is BIG. Bearn Stearns and Fannie Mae were big.

Also please don't give arguments about piracy, Steam did not prevent piracy at all. Fallout is proof of that.
Piracy was bye the way born the day computer gaming was born and as much as I can tell it did not kill game developing so far and will newer do. Distribution monopoly on the other hand, now that is probably something to fear much more.

I concur with the title.
I hate being forced to install a program just to be able to access the very game I paid money for and is already installed on my computer.
So I bought the game, installed, found out it required steam... Then I uninstalled and downloaded a copy of the game which doesn't require steam or cd checks at all. >_>
If they persist in using steam as their method of DRM, then I doubt I will be buying any of the inevitable DLC's - I'll just stick to mods from the nexus site.

Edit:
I have bought games from both ImpulseDriven and Direct2Drive before, and THEY don't have any intrusive programs which you need to install and run everytime I want to play my games.

Valve is so proud that they now have 30 million user accounts. Well that's easy to achieve when games force you to make a Steam account lol. Personally I have no issues with Steam but forcing people to use something so they can play their games is never a good thing. What if 1 game have to use Steam, another game have to use Impulse, a 3rd game have to use Capsule and the list goes on & on ... Bad.

I don't see why Steam does any harm.

I love Steam.

The have amazing support for their games.
If your game is connected to your account, no worries if you ever lose your DVD/CD-Key.
They automatically patch/update games, and now even alert me when new drivers for my video card are released.
It's a great way to communicate with friends while in game.

For the people who say they dislike it just because of the fact they force you to use it, you're just kicking up a fuss for the sake of it. Yeah, they force us, but why would it be a problem with such a great service? People are going on against digital game purchases, Steam offers it, nobody says you have to buy games off Steam. You want your DVD's? Cool, I always buy a physical copy of the game too, even though Steam tends to be cheaper. Doesn't give you a reason to hate on a service just because you don't use it.

I would argue broadband internet is far more common than traditional phone service. I dont know anybody that still gets "normal" telephone service. They either get it through the cable company or just get an unlimited minute Cell phone plan.

I dont know a single person who still uses dial up. In fact I dont even know how you could navigate most modern webpages on dialup. It would take like 5 minutes just to load a page it wouldnt even be worth the cost of admission, so many adds on pages are video based as I recall in the late 90's you would have to wait like an hour to load a 1 minute low grade video clip.

and if you dont consider DSL broadband it isnt "that" slow. you could still download a game in a few hours, which frankly isnt that bad.

With D2D you get limited installs. so no you dont have to install steam, but have to keep a library of passcodes, and believe me, (I own like 10 games through D2D I still will if something isnt available through steam or impulse)

Ive had many DRM issues with D2D, i.e. the game demanding verification every time it starts in doing so exhausts my "activations" then I have to wait a week for D2D to respond and get a new activation code.

Ive had no problems with impulse Although the only game I have on it is Sins of a solar empire, and that is a DRM free game as it stands, so I cant comment on what kind of DRM is present for the other games they provide(and believe me there is).

I cant imagine impulse as a program is very different from steam, the look and feel is very similar.

you can disable the steam overlay its steam\setting\ingame and just uncheck the steam in game box

It was also pointed out that you can change the key combo used to bring up the overlay as well.

Eh? How so? The steamworks kit is free for a publisher, that the cut that steam takes to host the files for sale versus the cut that, say, gamestop takes is less due to far less necessary overhead. I guess you could make an argument that all the haters will refuse to buy the game because of steam, but you'd then have to establish that there's more lost sales than sales gained from people who see "Fallout: New Vegas" show up on steam and decide to buy it.

MGM is a big company, and guess what, they filed for bankruptcy.

I like Steam, but I have to disagree with that argument - my parents (who are very techie pensioners and love computer games) live in a village only about 40 miles from London and their only options are very slow internet via a phone line or hugely expensive satellite broadband which they can't afford, and they can't use their mobile phones at all from home because there's no signal in their valley.

It's very easy for people who live in more populous areas with good access to services to underestimate the difficulties experienced by those who live a bit off the beaten track!

Nah, that's why I said "used to." I know all about how they eventually upped the limit to five installs, eventually released a semi-working revoke tool, and finally got rid of the install limits completely.

I was using the Bioshock DRM as an example of DRM that harms consumers and which intelligent consumers could oppose without supporting piracy. I could have also said Starforce and had it be equally as valid.



Exactly. I'm hardpressed to think of why steam is a bad thing for anyone who has an internet connection. It's got good sales for the consumer, it makes oodles of money for Valve (thus making its position more secure), and it lets indie devs publish their games for far less expense than shopping around for a publisher, one who's increasingly looking only for safe bets, ie AAA first person console shooter number 9999.

How could you consider this an even remotely accurate metaphor? A shop technician staying at your house 24/7 and monitoring everything you do is comparable to a system that has, what, basically ZERO DRM when run in offline mode? Are you [censored]?

A more accurate example would be a shop technician coming to your house, installing your new TV, then leaving. You would then have to call the shop technician every time you wanted to play a game purchased from THAT SHOP. The call would be connected straight away (or may take a few seconds, depending on how far you live from the nearest technician's workplace) and, once answered, the shop technician would put you on hold. He would then make sure that you have legally purchased the game. This should only take a few seconds. The hold music would serve as an advertisemant for other games that you may like -- but you are able to turn off these advertisemants permanently by pressing a key on your phone. Once the technician returns from checking to make sure you are a customer, he would give you access to the game and stay on the line (at your request) to help you browse the net and send messages to your friends while playing the game. Also, the store has implemented a policy where if your phone line is out of service, you can start the game up without calling the technician by pressing a button on your TV.



Aw, is the pain of starting up an application too much for you? If it helps to soothe your weeping heart you can run Steam in offline mode.



Oh god forbid Steam does it for you. DAMN STEAM FOR MAKING YOUR LIFE EASIER. THOSE SCOUNDRELS.



I believe there was a post from Valve addressing this very issue a few years ago. They stated that if Steam was to shut down, DRM-free executables would be released for every game and you would be able to play them without Steam.

OK, first of all, this is total and utter BS. I myself have manually installed patches and beta patches that weren't available on Steam yet. And addons like what, mods and stuff? Also BS. I've NEVER had any problems getting mods to run (especially FO3 mods.) Typically expansions or DLC won't play well with other distribution versions no matter where they came from, whether it's from Steam, D2D, retail, etc.

Well to be fair, there are about 6 times as many console formats as PC formats



Actually in this case I think it would be akin to McDonald's announcing that all burgers will now be gator-burgers, beef will no longer be served.



The "pains" are the features I would be using, while the listed "benefits" are things I neither want nor would ever use. In fact when I first looked at Steam several years ago I thought it was interesting, maybe when it gets more stable I'll try it out, but then they started adding all these useless (to me) features that completely turned me off.




There are plenty of options, but every time someone asks for one someone denigrates them.

I have been a Fallout fan since Wasteland, but if the future of Fallout is linked to Steam then I may be done with the series. I really hope that when New Vegas GOTY comes out Bethesda will rework the installer so that Steam is no longer required.

Hated Steam at first due to the hassle of installing it and feelings of big brother/content control and being hassled more than a pirate... but then realized that the convenience of having a central game account that I could install anywhere and not worry about losing Cd's kicked ass!!

However, after making most of my game purchases over Steam for the last couple of years troubling thoughts started to creep into my head recently.

Now as everyone knows (or should know) the Steam EULA pretty much states that Steam doesn't owe you jack and there is no actual guarantee of access to your games:

*Steam shuts down tomorrow or anytime on the future = your screwed
*Steam decides to become subscription based and eventually you have to pay for access = your screwed
*Steam goes public and gets bought out/shutdown/changed radically = your screwed
*Get hacked/VAC banned/break some other rule now or in the future and get banned/disabled (guess what) = your screwed
*Steam keeps getting larger and since it is not subscription based the cost of maintaining servers and the availability of old purchases drives it to a tipping point where it can no longer profit and pay the power bills (wonder what that ratio would be....) = Your screwed

Now these are all just possibilities but....
Really I think my own negative feelings over Steam still stem from my original feelings of loss of control over content. I'll probably keep making purchases with Steam and if it ever shuts down I'm sure I will back up my games in time and a general Steam crack (either official or from the community) will allow me to keep playing my games but still.... Food for thought people.

The outright irony contained in your above statement is probably completely lost to you, at least from all outward appearance.

It made me laugh though.