I have to say, I felt very underwhelmed at Bitter Springs, considering it's the site of a mass genocide more or less, and the horrors a handful of NCR 1st Recon complain about when asked, there seems to be little indication of its bloody fight. Maybe it's just me, but Bitter Springs felt....I dont know, it just felt empty story wise.

Yeah, I just went there and was fairly under whelmed.

Even ol’ Boone-Tang didn’t mention anything.

I agree.. It just looked like a caravan site to me lol. But there are people living there, it's not like they'd just leave all of the carnage for everyone to see.

I guess they thought the graveyard would be a big enough indication that "[censored] went down here". I didn't understand that place much at all. Just a bunch of random people who's side is unknown to me.

True, but you hear nothing about Bitter Springs except "It was terrible, we wish it didnt happen" or "THOSE TAN DEVILS DUN KEELED OUR PEPLES"

but beyond fleeting dialogue, it isnt much mentioned.

No... I seem to remember someone gave me a detailed description of what happened. I don't remember who but I remember what they told me. Maybe it was Papa Khan?

Yes, him and Bitter Root in Macarran give you a background on it, but there isnt much recognition of it. It's like they are saying 'Well, we didnt MEAN to, so we just like to pretend it didnt happen."

I would honestly have been more impressed by it if when you arrived it was just a smouldering wreckage with no one living anywhere near it. At least then you would have had the sense that something really bad had happened there.

For me, it was pretty hard to believe that any of the Khans would want to stay there after what had happened. But apparently they did want to stay.. for some reason lol.

I got a detailed description of what happened at bittersprings from Boone, sure I did not get the other side of the story, but if you figure in human nature then you can figure the other sides story.

The NCR is said to have been embarassed over the incident, so it makes sense that they'd clean things up a bit. Bury the bodies, at the very least, and there is a rather large graveyard nearby.

I'm not sure what's supposed to indicate the bloody fight. It was in the past, they cleaned up and tried to forget about it.

Do Boone's quest if you want to intensify your Bitter Springs experience.

Pretty sure Chaka Khan Papa Khan tells you about Bitter Springs in fairly great detail.

Short version is, the Khans got wiped out (again) there, and then the NCR refurbished into, ironically enough, a refugee camp.

Boone does during his follower quest, when standing on the ridge he basically runs it all down for you.

8-10 Graves=/=large?

@Jare- I know the History of it, my problem is that it feels more or less like an ignored sub-sub backpiece of the game.

No it wasn't Boone I never did his quest. There is only one follower I ever use now that I got the achievement for getting everyone.

I don't understand what you mean, the massacre happened, NCR takes control and tries to forget about it, and they set up a refugee camp there for people being harassed by Legion. There are 2 quests given there, by the highest ranking NCR trooper there.

*cough* watch the spoilers here peoples *cough* *cough* thanks *cough*

Graphically it's not that impressive, but doing Boone's quest and having him express his experience made it enjoyable, especially if it's the first time you've been there. I really loved a few of his non-menued comments as you're following him along, one in particular as (mini-spoiler maybe, but not much of one) . Made it feel all the sadder somehow.

I tend to agree with what someone else said...it was a battle/massacre area and they've had time to clean it up. Dirt, dust, the occasional rain erases the rest.

Okay, I will grant you that. Nevertheless, I still stand by my point that the NCR would've cleaned up at least a little. Perhaps they crammed more than one body in each individual grave so that they're actually mass graves. Or else they burned them. :shrug:

I'm not sure what you would expect. The NCR doesn't really deny it happened but they do their best to basically ignore it and cover it up. They aren't going to leave a bunch of bullet ridden children's corpses out rotting in the open.

Well played Sir.


This is the spoilers section home slice.

In real life, no one hears about the My Lai Massacre anymore. It should never be forgotten though and although it was different, the story of Bitter Springs reminded me of that. The story of BS is fleshed out more as you speak with more people. I agree that turning the site into a refugee camp goes a long way toward redeeming the NCR there. It appears the refugees are glad they are there to protect them and even the one Khan (Oscar) that was giving them trouble thanks you later for turning him around. It's quite a compelling story.

When do powerful nations/armies talk a lot about less than honorable actions they performed? Do we talk a lot about all the Natives we slaughtered during the expansion of the US? Sure you'll hear about some massacres from time to time, but it's not something we all talk about every day. And as we move forward, we hit massacres and atrocities in every major conflict from the World Wars to the current wars in Iraq/Afghanistan. You'll hear "NATO apologized for blowing up a school today, and promised they'll investigate it" and that's about it. The fact that the NCR is reluctant to talk about it/covers it up, isn't surprising. At all.

As for the people staying there, as far as I know, they are NOT Great Khans. They're NCR refugees/refugees from the Wasteland.

The only thing that surprised me, was the small number of graves at Bitter Springs. Assuming the Great Khans didn't take the dead and dying with them, you'd expect a graveyard less like the one at Bitter Springs and more like the one at Forlorn Hope.

There is a quest that takes you to a nearby cave, reminding us that not everybody is ready to let this go...

It helps if you kill everyone there, that usually gives it the right atmosphere.