So there is a reason why I am posting this in the spoilers section ...

Lack of choice is sadly a concurrent theme with all the guild questlines.

Not sure a spoiler tag is needed in the spoiler section.

Anyway many felt this way. I recall in MW for House Telvanni you had the option to not become the leader after your stronghold was finished, and several of my characters did this. They honestly did not what to be bothered with House politics.

Spoilers I guess:

Other things you get rail-roaded into in this game, Companions WW, many Daedric quests (many trick you into starting them), DB becoming Listener, etc.

To be honest being a Nightingale isn't that bad. Basically you get some armor and a new perk. You are never actually called upon to do anything and the sanctuary is never restored so you could live there. Roleplaying it though can be a problem.

Kept the Skeleton Key, put the pieces of the Nightingale Armor that weren't conducive to my stealthy-archer build in a chest, and left the TG without a Captain at its helm. I'm very ok with it.

PS - Cicero's boots look cooler than the Nightingale ones anyways

I totally agree. It's brahmin dung. The whole TG anything is total and utter garbage that needs burning.

I did the quests for the trophies and the trophies only. The worst trophies and quests I ever did, on any game, ever.
I threw every single piece of TG garbage away in the wilderness were no one could find it, or try to give it me back.

It gives you no option to destroy the TG, no option not to lead a bunch of morons , no option to side with Mercer Frey as a alternative ending, even.
And there are clear markers to join him in the end dialogue.
I'll take greed and Nocturnal influence destruction any day.

But forcing you to serve the stupidiest daedra possible to advance the quest, FFS!
Forcing you to serve a daedra who is too stupid and slack to find people to find her own artifact, that is beyond freaking moronic.
She is'nt even grateful. She asks for way too much and offers literally nothing. She does'nt even let you keep the skeleton key, frags sake!

All the other deadra either give you the artifact or ask you to find it. Whatever, they have got a grip on their stuff and know how to get things done.


You do get railroaded a lot in this game.

But some is'nt so bad. The Dark Brotherhood serve Sithis, so yes, you join them, you serve Sithis. Fair enough.
They're awesome and the quests are awesome.
And if you're going to serve someone as part of your job, you may as well serve the god of death.

The Companions, it could you HAVE to be a werewolf. Shame you can't just be a companion without the lycanthropy.

BTW, you don't need spoiler tags in the spoiler section, at all.

I actually wanted to join Mjoll the Lioness and clear them out like you can the DB. It almost makes it sound like you can as even the Jarl want's them gone. In fact some towns people mention that a small group of guards could go down there and wipe them out, cept they can't because of the war. Well what about after you finish the Civil War quests? I especially wanted to get some dirt on Maven Black-Briar and remove her and the guild together. Heck I wouldn't care if she tried to send the DB after me as I already destroyed them. So even though you are made Thane of Riften, hero to the people, you can't do a dang thing about the TG or Maven. No wonder Mjoll just wanders around town moaning about it.

Whole Riften itself reeks of corruption and selfishness. At the very least, as simple as it was, there could have been an indentical fix to this, as with the Dark Botherhood. Not the best option, but better than none.

I wouldn't worry too much about having to serve any particular Daedra because I'm pretty sure Akatosh trumps them all.

I don't understand the hate the Thieves' Guild gets. Yeah it's not perfect, but I find it enjoyable, if lacking in actual thievery most of the time. Besides, the characters in it are actually much better defined than the ones in the "good" guilds like the Companions or the College of Winterhold. The Companions offer little insight to who they are and rarely take notice of what you've done. At least once you restore the Thieves' Guild you can hear Rune and Nuirin talking about how they've never seen so much money pour into the Guild.

I do wish there was a way to cut Maven out of the deal though.

I wasn't a fan of the ending to the TG either. I spent a lot of time developing my character in my head as a sort of selfish, cowardly, 'only in it for the money' type guy who just wants an easy way to a quick septim so he can spend his nights in the taverns with fine wine and fine women. Then all of a sudden I'm a damn priest? Brave, noble, honourable servant of Nocturnal???

I can't RP that. My character just changed personality overnight.

This is how I justify it as well. The same with Sithis, and whoever else thinks they have claim on the soul of this particular Dragonborn. Akatosh/Shor will likely have better claim.

Why the hell would I want to be an eternal sentinel of the source of the luck of all the world's scroundrels? I think i'll take eternal partying in Sovngarde any day of the week, thanks. =P

I do too. Very, very much. There are markers all over to show and start a destroy the TG questline. No one with any sense wants them around. The Jarl, Mjoll, Aerin, the shopkeepers, they all want them and Maven gone. After a point Mjoll even asks you how you are going getting rid of the TG. I think you could originally, and some morons removed it. The way Mjoll mentions it a lot, in the way some quests trigger, very much implies there was meant to be a quest there.

I think we might get the chance in an expansion.

Less morons, more time constraints. There are a lot of little signs in Skyrim that point to plans for more depth in the game than what's actually there. If Beth hadn't been so stubborn with that stupid gimmicky 11.11.11 release date, I can't help but wonder how much more Skyrim could've been.

Personally I loved the Thieve's Guild, the story, the missions, the characters, the settings. For me the TG is one of, if not the best questline in the game.

I do agree however that there should have been more choice. Once Nocturnal was placed into things, despite her having limited involvements with the Thieve's Guild in the past I felt a strong sense of hesitation. I didn't want to sell my soul to a Daedric Prince, however I still wanted to complete the questline, so I did it anyway.

There should have been more choice though. Mercer may have been a Nightingale, but we don't gain any of the blessings or powers (Just the armour, which we have before sealing the deal anyway) until after Mercer is defeated and the Twilight Sephulcer is restored. That to me says we didn't really even need Nocturnal's favour to beat him.

The way I see it there were plenty of places where you could've made choices, which could either have carried on the story as normal with a few dialogue changes or changed the ending of the guild entirely.

- You could easily neglect Nocturnal's offer when the other two accept it. Choosing to hunt down Mercer of your own accord. This could easily have still led you to Irkingthad and the final confrontation with Mercer, with or without Karliah and Brynjolf as back-up. Hell you could have pissed one or both of them off by neglecting the deal but met them in the temple later on to group up.
- You could side with Mercer and doom the Thieve's Guild, taking an Eye of the Falmer and killing Brynjolf and Karliah. The guild could then take two directions: You could return to them and after passing a speech check, persuade them that Mercer got away after killing Karliah and Brynjolf, or fail that check and have the entire guild turn on you, leading to their demise.
- You could do the above but also still kill Mercer and claim the Skeleton Key
- It should have been possible to keep the Skeleton Key (Without simply not finishing the quest), rather than return it. This could lead to the guild slowly perishing due to lost luck, losing members to either death or simple imprisonment over time until it is returned. (Imprisonment or death could be determined by how wealthy you made the guild before keeping the key) The guild wouldn't be happy about this and you'd be shunned by them until after returning the key. After which point you could set about freeing or replacing lost guild members.
- You could destroy the Thieve's Guild, similar to how the Brotherhood get wiped out. I'd never do it but the simple option would be nice.
- Finally. The Skeleton Key was supposed to be this very powerful item in Mercer's hands, but it really didn't seem to do that much. For something meant to enhance his skills beyond any natural thief's, simply being able to unlock any door isn't that impressive. They could have given Mercer dragon shouts (Though the shouts wouldn't actually be audible, only their effects applied) so he could use Elemental Fury, Whirlwind Sprint etc. Anything that would make him a more formidable opponent and live up to the need to become a Nightingale. In previous games it may have only unlocked doors, but it was supposed to be far more formidable this time around.

I loved the Thieve's Guild questline, it's easily my favourite, but it still could have been better. All guild questlines could have been better, all they needed was a little more length and choice. It would also have been nice if each guild had a joinable rival faction, e.g. joining the Silver Hand to wipe out the Companions, but both guilds having their own dark secrets that could push you toward or away from them. (I.e. The Silver Hand seem as if they were originally planned to be vampires and of course the Companions werewolves) It would also have been nice if certain things weren't a requirement to reach a high rank, I might not want to be Arch-Mage or the Harbinger, or become those things but via a different way.

So many missed opportunities.

Krosis. :'(

Most of this^.

The only reason I complete the TG quest, Nocturnal and all, is to get the Master TG armor. That's it. To me it's by far the coolest looking LA in the game. And you shouldn't have to give back what is one of the best Thief-type tools in the game to get it (Skeleton Key). And dammit, you do earn that key. You have to go through a lot to become TG Master. All those boring City Influence quests plus a ton of fighting and fetching. Is Nocturnal so unresourceful that she can't find someone to make another Skeleton key? Apparently the Yellow Pages would do some booming business among the Daedra.

As for choices, there really aren't any and that's too bad. But Mercer Frey's a tool anyway so offing him is always satisfying.

All that complaining aside, the TG is still the best questline in the game. Very involved, detailed, and unlike the other questlines, you really do earn the title of TG Master. I wish all the lines were as good.

Those choices would be good. They all make a lot more sense than what there is now.

Definitely keeping the key should have been an option. So you're a thief who's just been handed the key to any lock you care to put it in - and you're not going to steal it? What kind of thief are you!?

Stealing the key from Nocturnal herself... so much potential for a story.

A theft almost as, if not more grand than the theft of the Grey Cowl.

I'm honestly disappointed by its lack of appearance in Skyrim. I adored it in Oblivion.

I tend to roll the honourable thief type, but for my more evil characters, it would have been nice to keep the key and still advance the questline.