Columbus Day : Othor Games

» Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:32 pm

I'd happily have a 'Crowell at Wexford' day if I got a lie in.

» Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vito-de-la-cruz/i-dont-have-to-celebrate-_b_1002805.html

I fail to see your (or rather the blogger's) point. Compared to men like Andrew Jackson -- who's still on US currency -- or Hernando Cortez -- Columbus was a pretty tame guy. He lived in the 1400s. Yes, he didn't have a very progressive view on race, but very, very, very few people did back then. When you look at anyone through a modern lens, they seem pretty bone headed and ignorant. It just shows we've come a long way.

If you hate him that much, make it a point to go work on that day. How many people 'celebrate' it anyway? Normally when Columbus is mentioned, he's discussed along with the fate of the Native Americans. So if anything, the holiday helps people remember what happened to the natives and also honors them

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:39 am

Indeed. Nothing more than a lucky idiot.

Contrary to popular belief, the idea that the world was round was neither new nor controversial; but the size of the earth was of some debate. In order to get support for his expedition he paid "Experts" to estimate the planet was much smaller than it was - if the Americas weren't there there was no way he would have made it to india as planned - he and the crew would have starved to death long before.

So much Columbus hate here! I'm not going to comment further on that. But I'll comment on this:

The world being round was very much accepted at that time. On of several pieces of evidence is that as a ship goes over the horizon the ships sails disappear last.

And the size of the world was also known, and correctly calculated by the ancient Greeks (Eratosthenes), by measuring the angles of the sun at different locations of the earth (eg Greece and Egypt) at the same time of year. Those Ancient Greeks were really clever.

But Columbus did not repeat that calculation and used the wrong type of "mile" for the measurement leading him to think the Earth was smaller than it is. Kind of like someone thinking a distance is centimeters instead of inches.

Much in these posts is true, except that there's something missing in that of Savlian. Columbus didn't just made a miscalculation in determining the size of the Earth. He stubbornly refused to listen to all the people who told him about Erathostenes' calculations, preferring to believe instead in his own misguided idea that the world must be much smaller than Erathostenes said it was.

The reason that Columbus was one of the first to get to India by crossing the Atlantic (he wasn't the first to try, but, the Norseman aside, he was the first to succeed) was that almost everyone else at the time had the good sense to see that such a journey would be far longer than technology at the time allowed, and that, as agent_c said, the ship's crew would starve to death long before reaching India. If there hadn't happened to be another continent in between Europe and Asia, Columbus and his men would have died, just like everyone in Europe who had a clue about maths told him he would. Columbus was an incredibly lucky idiot.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:05 am

Well technically, the vikings were the first to find the new world but I guess Columbus was the first recorded traveler to the Americas. :mellow:

» Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:19 pm

Much in these posts is true, except that there's something missing in that of Savlian. Columbus didn't just made a miscalculation in determining the size of the Earth. He stubbornly refused to listen to all the people who told him about Erathostenes' calculations, preferring to believe instead in his own misguided idea that the world must be much smaller than Erathostenes said it was....

That was one theory, but I believe it was discredited. Several sources. Here is one from NASA:

Columbus had an estimate of his own. Some historians have proposed that he used an argument like Strabo's, but Dr. Fischer found his claim to be based on incorrect units of distance. Columbus used an erroneous estimate by Ptolemy (whom we meet again), who based it on a later definition of the stadium, and in estimating the size of the settled world he confused the Arab mile, used by El Ma'mun, with the Roman mile on which our own mile is based. All the same, his final estimate of the distance to India was close to Strabo's.

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:43 am

Well technically, the vikings were the first to find the new world but I guess Columbus was the first recorded traveler to the Americas. :mellow:

To be fair, the Vikings landed in a relativly unpleasant part of Canada and therefore had no reason to stay or tell other people about it.

Columbus landed in a very lucrative part of the Americas which is why he is credited with the discover.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:42 am

It's just another excuse for the politicians, non essential government workers, the post office and financial institutions to get a paid day off.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:31 am

That was one theory, but I believe it was discredited. Several sources. Here is one from NASA:

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

Hmm... I must admit that I've never studied the issue very thoroughly myself, to be honest I'm just repeating what I heard in a seminar about a year ago. Still, that article from Dr. Fischer is from 1975, so I doubt that my professors wouldn't have heard of it. And still, even if he genuinely made a miscalculation due to using wrong measurements, that article you linked still states what I said before, that there were plenty of experts that told Columbus that he was mistaken:

All these results were known to the panel of experts which King Ferdinand appointed to examine the proposal made by Columbus. They turned Columbus down, because using the original value by Eratosthenes, they calculated how far India was to the west of Spain, and concluded that the distance was far too great.

So he had plenty of reason to double-check his calculations before setting sail, yet for some reason he still came to the wrong conclusions. I guess we'll never know whether he really believed in his own miscalculation or that he deliberately fudged his numbers to get the funding for an expedition :shrug:.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:58 am

yeah that is strange. why is it a holiday?
they are nice to celebrate Comlumbus day but they don't celebrate the first europeans to get there. The Vikings. America, = Vinland = Wineland. - Why Vinland (Wineland)? no one knows, maybe they drank wine on the trip over there.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:53 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vito-de-la-cruz/i-dont-have-to-celebrate-_b_1002805.html

The treatment of native Americans is a sad history, ripe with exploitation by these so called more "civilized" people. Columbus was the just the first to set precedent of how worthless these peoples lives were to the royal families of Europe. I think its sad we still have a holiday celebrating such a bloodthirsty "hero" and just as appalled at the fact that children are probably in school right now learning about how great this guy supposedly is and why he deserves a holiday (though I'm sure they won't mention any of the above...). So maybe he wasn't "genocidal", the only reason he let them live was because he thought they were more important as slaves. Not a much better fate. This holiday is a pathetic sham, and its ridiculous its still celebrated as a holiday. Hurray for native genocide, hurray for the mistreatment and destruction of entire cultures, all in the pursuit of money.

...And that, my friends, is capitalism and the American dream in a nutshell.

» Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:55 pm

I vote to rename Columbus day Genocide Day and it should be celebrated by allowing people to conquer others' homes and property in the name of civilization.

I second this motion.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:51 am

Although misguided, Columbus was not a moron. He was the first European to understand the Atlantic's trade winds -- that's why he was the first one to get to the Americas -- he was a navigational innovator.

But he wasn't first. The Vikings knew where it was all along; additionally there are some things to suggest that fishermen out of Bristol (amongst other places) knew the continent was there but chose not to tell anyone as to spoil a great fishing spot through overfishing.

» Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:17 am

I vote to rename Columbus day Genocide Day and it should be celebrated by allowing people to conquer others' homes and property in the name of civilization.

So says the one who implied Hitler was a 'great' dictator. :laugh: