Creating new Worldspaces.....Discussion Thread #5

Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Thread #5

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1343497-heightmap-editing-and-world-editing/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345519-creating-new-worldspaceshow-to-get-around-the-broken-ck-features/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1348239-creating-new-worldspacesdiscussion-thread-3/
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1354274-creating-new-worldspacesdiscussion-thread-4/

If one of the developers see this! The LOD generator in the CK is completely broken and useless to us, it does not create LOD texture files properly.


Rundown of bugs with the Creation Kit LOD generator:
- Textures generated have black parts on them....sometimes around the cell borders, somethings just covering half the texture.
- Tree LOD does not work. The LOD meshes do not dissappear when you get close, you can see them sticking out of the trees.
- LOD objects are often not UV mapped correctly leading to bad LOD.

Bugs when importing heightmaps:
- Clicking on the overview asked if you want to save the current texture, which causes a crash 100% of the time.
- Crashes for most people.


Tools some people are using to get around using the CK for this:
Oscape Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1320917-wip-preview-oscape-landscape-lod-generator/
TESAnnwyn and TES4qLOD Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1311730-release-tesannwyn-and-tes4qlod-for-skyrim/

I haven't used them yet, so you'll have to follow some other instructions on how to use them. Maegfaer and thekarithian, can you put up some updated information?

And some proof of LOD working now from Maegfaer and the MERP project:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6223/2012021300018.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7513/2012021300011.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5659/2012021300012x.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/156/2012021300013.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1994/2012021300019.jpg


Onto copy-pasted info from the past thread:

Creating a Worldspace:
Create your worldspace in the worldspace menu....its pretty easy. Fill in the data as needed (look at other worldspaces for what is required) and refer to the wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/World_Spaces


Heightmaps:

Wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/Heightmap_Editing

Most people have only had success by creating heightmaps outside of the CK and importing in the .RAW image/s. The .raw image represents a Quad which is 32x32 cells. THe default viewing size for a quad in the CK is 4 on the screen and the position 0,0 of the map is location at the center point between quad; -1_0, 0_0, -1_-1, 0_-1. So if you want to build around the 0,0 point of your world, you will need 4 quads of heightmap. See this diagram for more infomation:http://cs.elderscrolls.com/images/8/80/Overviewgrid.jpg

To import a .raw, you need to put it in your Skyrim/Data/HeightField Folder (make it if it doesn't exist). It must then be named for whatever quad it is supposed to fill. For my world of 4 quads I imported -1_0.raw, 0_0.raw, -1_-1.raw, 0_-1.raw

.raw files also need special fomratting as per the wiki: Use 1024x1024 16-bit RAW format images with Raw Option settings: Header: 0, Non-interleaved Order, Count: 1, Depth: 16 Bits, Byte Order: IBM PC.

Once you have your files in place, load up your mod iwth the CK, and open it in the heightmap window, go file -> import and a loading bar will start. WHen you get a "File in use error - Waiting" bow come up, click cancel each time. Once complete close the window. Your hieghtmap should be imported, load it in the render window to be sure.

I would also suggest removing the .raw files from the folder then (put them somewhere safe) as it sort of looks like the CK auto-imports them when you open the heightmap editor.

Now remember, this tool is very resource intensive and if your computer isnt fairly beefy expect crashes. A soon as you can, save your mod. I am able to (though I hear others just get crashing) to use the other tools in the hieghtmap and then click 'save' to save my changes. However I am running an i7 (2600k) with 8 Gigs of RAM, less hardware may not be able to handle it.


Regions:
Regions still work the same as previous games, and seem to be fairly bugfree, though can be a bit crash happy when you generate.

Since its the same, these tutorials from Fallout and still aply:
http://www.truancyfactory.com/tutorials/fallout3/fallout_regions.html

I've also found the GECK WIki to be useful:
http://geck.gamesas.com/index.php/Regions


Worldspace .LOD file
Every worldspace requires a .lod file that says how big it is. The CK will generate one for you, but you must have a lodsettings folder in your Skyrim/Data folder for it to work.....for some reason if the folder isn't there for it ot put the file in, it does not make the file.


Creating the LOD:
This is where it gets tricky. The CK's built in LOD generator is broken, it does not make the textures properly for the LOD meshes. It will also destroy your heightmap if you try to generate LOD textures and your working in an .esp.

For that reason, Maegfaer has written this guide to using Oscape to create the LOD.
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:03 am

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=20454883Ethatron, on 07 March 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Can you make me a download with: textures how they are suppose to be (CK probably) and your ESM/ESP? Maybe the vertex-colors need only to be gamma-corrected.



Yes thankyou , I can I guess try a last attempt I hope you can check if it can be improved/fixed somehow ...
but after two weeks trying to make all possible attempts when I am used to have acertain professional look in my landscaping due to "good" landscape tools I guess you can understand my frustration working with subtask tools in CK ...

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=20455062Maegfaer, on 07 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

This.

Don't expect any help from Bethesda, we are on our own. ...................




I actually expect more from Bethesda this time than last games because now they are "using" mods to publicize their game and even created a mod support platform on steam , but it makes no sense if they DO NOT SUPPORT! the creation of the mods themselves ... just shooting out on web blog , look how cool looks this pink dragon or those guards dancing WMC it makes no sense to me , this for me is crap is not modding ! The true modding is where big projects take the leap , new landscapes new quests new content that is not just a remesh and retexture of the original stuff ... The true new content is the true modding not the reshape in 10000 polygons of a body and call it "better body" not retexture every texture from 1024 to 8192 and call it better textures .... at least this is how I think about it ....

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=20455062Maegfaer, on 07 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

We at MERP are doing quite well if I say so myself. The third region has been generated already and will be merged tomorrow, and we have about 4 exterior designers working already in the first two generated regions. With the necessary workarounds we got LOD fully working as well. This is our screenshot thread:

http://merp.straygenius.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101614#p101614

We're going to start placing mountain cliff meshes and mountain clouds soon as well. That will increase the quality of the view drastically.


I am sorry it looks certain good and happy for you but the problem I am having is not the lods created by oscape that look fine altough some very minor seam problems inthe meshes themselves but on the color tone difference in the vertex map ....

Of course if Etathron coudl make also a Lookup table with Texture ID matching a secondary loaded color map for autotexturing woudl be supergreat , but I see he has released a opensource code so I hope may be someone coudl take the task , befoure I become enough proficent in c++ image editing to be able to do by myself ...

there are a lot of landscaping tools that woudl help a lot in working on landscapes in TES , the only problem is that they simply do not exhist even in the basic CK ....

like falloff slope paint , height selection paint , voxel sculpting , etc etc .... but the most promising and usefull feature woudl surely be a lookup table with matching between Texture IDs and special color codes for a color map that woul allow you to create that map in another program , even cryengine eventually and use this information to texture in a more natural and porfessional way the TESV landscape....
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sharon
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:20 pm

Yes thankyou , I can I guess try a last attempt I hope you can check if it can be improved/fixed somehow ...

I asked Arcedwan because I need the Imperial City setup, not your's. It's excactly the test-case I need.
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Darian Ennels
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:52 am

whats the difference...
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Mr. Allen
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:39 pm

I asked Arcedwan because I need the Imperial City setup, not your's. It's excactly the test-case I need.

Well you would have to give me a hint how (or where) to make that down(up)load. I'm not really an expert in all of this. The thing is 170 mb big. I could think of 5 mails with my provider, I could do that, I guess...
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Eve Booker
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:43 am

So I made some testing.
If you take a look at this screenshot from quite a bare area with distant objects disabled

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2255/screenshot14xl.jpg

which contains lods generated with Oscape, then you will notice that there is none of that color discrepancy. Bethesda surely didn't use a vertex map for the tamriel worldspace and if they used vertex painting at all, then it must have been very little.
Lods generated with CK bring the same result like Oscape concerning vertex paint, you'll get the bichromatic difference PLUS the black stripes.

So I guees, it's a little too much to ask for, if we wanted the engine provided for the modders to be the next generation tool, that the devs surely didn't have. It's another question if modders achieve to make such a thing out of it.

And in comparison to the area restriction for lod trees this seems to be a minor problem anyway, THIS is either a bug which should be patched by the devs or some kind of willful restriction to prevent another "mod that shall not be named", in that case we cannot count on Bethesda. AND we need a solution for the problems resulting from version control, which was discribed by Joel Burgess. The only workaround for that is to create new ESMs over and over again, which seem to be at least difficult to merge at this time and also lead to new problems like textures vanished and so forth.

So these are the problems left, from my point of view: tree lod area restriction and version control.
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Anna Krzyzanowska
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:21 pm

No bethesda uses a lot vertex colo map , sorry no offense but in this case you do not know what u talking about may be... You can extract the vertex color map data from the landscape of tamriel ... I have sent files to etathron if he will care to look at despite is not the imperial city vertex base data ... Plus u dont need to send him all the stuff just send him esp and vertex map . U can use free online upload sites just look on google...
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Emily abigail Villarreal
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:15 am

Could you upload a picture of the tamriel vertex map? I can see none of the color difference in Skyrim with Oscape lods. It all depends on where the vertex paint is, I suppose...
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Blackdrak
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:50 am

Ah right, so I'm uploading the thing to mediafire just now. Let's see how this goes...
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Silvia Gil
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:13 am

u can extract with tesanwyn anyway I am trying now to use no vertex map altought is a serious limitation ...
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Ryan Lutz
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:22 am

Yeah, I know you can do that. I did that with the Oblivion.esm. But it practically only contains landmarks and no colors. So it's all covered by buildings etc.
Isn't that just something, that is generated solely by TESAnnwyn. I'll have to read through Lightwave's readme once more, I guess...

Edit:

Hey Ethatron, I uploaded my map and sent you the link...
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naana
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:41 pm

Hi, i start making my own isle but i have a big problem with wery short view distance. I try to generate lod in Oscape but this dont help.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8819/tesv2012030815023452.jpg
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Strawberry
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:09 am

Hi, i start making my own isle but i have a big problem with wery short view distance. I try to generate lod in Oscape but this dont help.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8819/tesv2012030815023452.jpg

On the Installer tab in Oscape, there is an option to generate lod settings. Check that too and hit install. Check the Skyrim data folder if it contains a subfolder "LODSettings". In that folder has to be a file whatever.lod, check also if all the mesh and texture files were installed correctly.

Also read the wiki site:

http://www.creationkit.com/Creating_a_Custom_Worldspace_with_LOD
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ezra
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:51 am

I just redid the oscape stuff and without using a color map .... thisis the result , the step is always present but ingame is mitigated by a distance dependant radial falloff...


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5075/10305427.jpg
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W E I R D
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:05 am

I think we shouldn't bother so much with "problems" that are mostly covered by Objects later.

Next you'll be complaining about that tiling everywhere...
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Justin
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:08 pm

May be in the end you are right , I have taken a look at the landscaping of bethesda and seems that to have a decent landscaping and look of the mountains they relied a lot on themeshes other than true landscape features ....

Edit: no .... they have used the vertex coloring but on a different use than having a proper landscape features thy used mostly to do a sort of coloring and shading ...
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Naazhe Perezz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:00 pm

Right, so I took a closer look at our little problem with the abrupt color difference and took some pictures. Take a very good look at them, the first is Oscape, the second is unmodified Skyrim.

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1381/oscape.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1219/vanillau.jpg

Of course this doesn't stick out so much when the whole landscape is packed with trees, rocks, buildings and in particular weather. But if we are very demanding and expect the CK to be a next generation tool, then we will of course notice all of this in our own map. So instaed of whining around about things, which are eventually very easy to cover up, we should try to deal with the real problems like area restriction for tree lod and the version control or esm merging problem.

So: this is not really a vertex map problem, but vertex painting makes this phenomenon more apparent, as it seems.

And Prometheus, please read your comments before you post them, they are sometimes a little difficult to decipher. I do this always with mine to make sure the communication functions as it should.
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Alan Cutler
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:38 am

Gah!
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Eve Booker
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:36 am

Edit:
Haha... so this seems to have worked out...
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dean Cutler
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:47 am

Gah!

I left the game open ...

Anyway I am trying a different approach now , cover all with meshes LOL ....

and on this topic , I am wondering how many textures I can use in an area? I see we have lots of textures but I doubt we can place all of them close one to the other ...
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Rhiannon Jones
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:35 pm

and on this topic , I am wondering how many textures I can use in an area? I see we have lots of textures but I doubt we can place all of them close one to the other ...
its the same boundary condition as in Oblivion:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Mod_File_Format/LAND#ATXT_subrecord_.288_bytes.29
in a quadrant of a cell (16x16 pixels or 17x17 texture nodes) in total 1 base texture and 8 additional layers. Although I'm not sure if the game engine limits this to 8 in total...
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Rob
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:40 am

Right, so I took a closer look at our little problem with the abrupt color difference and took some pictures. Take a very good look at them, the first is Oscape, the second is unmodified Skyrim.

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1381/oscape.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1219/vanillau.jpg

Aah, is that your problem! You do know that there is a file in Textures\Terrain called Noise.dds that applies an overlay to the LOD textures in the actively loaded cells? That's what's causing that strange transition. I noticed though that on some textures the transition is not notable (dark textures) and it's very notable on light textures. Not yet sure how to fix it, but making the Noise.dds texture far more solid, like a solid light grey fixes the transition. It makes the terrain look blurry and solid though, because of the lack of noise.

The issue is that despite Noise.dds being applied on all LOD textures, it is far weaker (more transparent?) on LOD textures outside the actively loaded cells. Thus the weird transition. I'd like to change that somehow, but I haven't figured out yet how.
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Tai Scott
 
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Post » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:15 am

Ok after having totally scrapped the vertex color map I just painted white most of the landscape ( well not white in color but white with snow ) so I did all the procedure load texture id described above ..... and generated lods with the max sampling and max resolution ... is it possible that this is the very poor result available with oscape?

and the seams ? still there ....

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/330/56967208.jpg
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Jessica Thomson
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Did you read my previous post, right above yours? It's because of the Noise.dds texture.
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Naomi Lastname
 
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Post » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:09 pm

Ok after having totally scrapped the vertex color map I just painted white most of the landscape ( well not white in color but white with snow ) so I did all the procedure load texture id described above ..... and generated lods with the max sampling and max resolution ... is it possible that this is the very poor result available with oscape?

and the seams ? still there ....

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/330/56967208.jpg

Prometheus, open your eyes and look at the pictures I uploaded. They are both from the Skyrym Tamriel map. The first is Oscape, the second unmodified Vanilla. THIS IS A PROBLEM IN VANILLA SKYRIM! Oscape changes nothing about that of course.

Do you even read the posts here?
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Lily
 
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